[Fis] Krassimir--information and entropy

Sat Dec 13 05:57:25 CET 2025

Krassimir,
good points.  far better related to the world we live in than shannon's equation and the metaphor of a telephone wire to explain human communication.
the second rule of science, as i learned it at the age of ten, is look at things right under your nose as if you've never seen them before, then proceed from there.  
do not limit yourself to what Lord Kelvin did in 1852 when creating the concept that would later be called entropy.  do not say that a phenomenon existing in a steam engine and in the lab is the underlying pattern of the universe.  
do not do what Ludwig Boltzmann did in 1877. don't use math to validate a notion that is false.  don't use math to turn a profoundly limited fact into a new dogma: entropy and the second law.
do what Charles Darwin did.  look at as much you can of the real world.  immerse yourself in it. and build your explanation from the complexities you see.  don't imprison yourself in the small room your university allocates to you.  don't imprison yourself in a "lab."  start with the earth, the cosmos, and the social setting around you. adventure to see things you've never imagined. then draw your generalizations from there.
with warmth and oomph--howard

I completely agree with your thoughts. Indeed, the study of the processes of interaction between people is very important and has great significance. Unfortunately, my impression is that most researchers adhere to the deeply erroneous and inapplicable to humans Shannon's paradigm.

Yes, the theory of signal transmission is wonderfully applied in technical data transmission systems, where the basic principle is "copy/paste". In other words, the image that is formed in the recipient's memory completely (100%!!!) coincides with the image in the sender's memory. Any deviation is considered an error and requires re-sending the data, as well as the application of error-resistant codes during transmission.

In humans, this is absolutely impossible and inapplicable. "Copy/paste" cannot happen due to the nature of the interaction between people, which is at the level of meaning, and not at the level of signals (reflections). The sender (a person or group of people) externalizes their mental structures (for example, this letter), and the recipient reflects what they have received and gives it their own meaning. It is impossible in this process to obtain an exact copy of the image from the source's memory in the receiver's memory. Therefore, it is correct to speak of "information interaction" in people, and of "communication" in technical systems. I am attaching a slide from my lecture at the IS4SI 2025 Summit, which contains the brilliant thought of the Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov, expressed more than a century ago.

   .   El 10/12/2025 a las 23:08, Krassimir Markov escribió:

Dear Steve,

I respect your opinion and understanding of the world through AE, but still there are some reasonable scientific boundaries that should not be crossed. Here is a small example. 

Air existed before we were born and, I hope, if there is no destructive war instigated by russia, it will continue to exist after our death. At the same time, without air we cannot live, i.e. we are an open system that constantly exchanges resources with the environment. In other words, living organisms are not autopoietic systems. To convince yourself of this statement, just stop breathing. The conviction in the truth of the statement will come to you only after a minute or two and you will probably accept that your operator should be written

O=F(O, Input, Output).

I am writing this in connection with your statement that "Material processes and interpretive activity are not alternatives; they are two sides of the same ecological dynamic. Neither can be shown to precede the other.” which I cannot accept as true.

Just as there are no closed autopoietic systems, so there is no reality that cannot exist without interpretation.

The ecological dynamic you are talking about is a mental structure and, of course, in it properly the mental structures that reflect the material processes and the mental structures that interpret them are dialectically connected in consciousness, and yes - they are two sides of a common mental structure, if we can even talk about sides in mental structures.

Dear Eric,

I completely agree with your thoughts. Indeed, the study of the processes of interaction between people is very important and has great significance. Unfortunately, my impression is that most researchers adhere to the deeply erroneous and inapplicable to humans Shannon's paradigm.

Yes, the theory of signal transmission is wonderfully applied in technical data transmission systems, where the basic principle is "copy/paste". In other words, the image that is formed in the recipient's memory completely (100%!!!) coincides with the image in the sender's memory. Any deviation is considered an error and requires re-sending the data, as well as the application of error-resistant codes during transmission.

In humans, this is absolutely impossible and inapplicable. "Copy/paste" cannot happen due to the nature of the interaction between people, which is at the level of meaning, and not at the level of signals (reflections). The sender (a person or group of people) externalizes their mental structures (for example, this letter), and the recipient reflects what they have received and gives it their own meaning. It is impossible in this process to obtain an exact copy of the image from the source's memory in the receiver's memory. Therefore, it is correct to speak of "information interaction" in people, and of "communication" in technical systems. I am attaching a slide from my lecture at the IS4SI 2025 Summit, which contains the brilliant thought of the Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov, expressed more than a century ago.

With respect,

Krassimir

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__________________________Howard BloomThe Howard Bloom Institutehttps://howardbloom.instituteAuthor of: The Case of the Sexual Cosmos: Everything You Know About Nature is Wrong ("A massive achievement, WOW!"  Richard Foreman, MacArthur Genius Award Winner, Officer of the Order of Arts & Letters, France)Previous books: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker),The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic),  The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild! Wonderful!” Timothy Leary),The Mohammed Code (“A terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media),Einstein, Michael Jackson & Me: a Search  for Soul in the Power Pits of Rock & Roll ("Amazing. The writing is revelatory." Freddy DeMann, manager of Michael Jackson and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York Weekly Times 
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