[Fis] Current remarks/Autopoiesis

[Louis Kauffman]

It is still worth while to read the original paper by Maturana, Varela and
Uribe.
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://monoskop.org/images/d/dd/Varela_Maturana_Uribe_1974_Autopoiesis.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WyWMlWnFm0o4ncLeSN2bah-w8NstuK2jGIYI4dDC6K3eiM--0f70muEN4SkRLS50fLMhSd0qnVj-BUy1$ 
Here is a link to that paper.


On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 3:16 PM Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> When I hear on autopiesis, my impression is that many people continue to
> be blindly tied to a conceptualization, interesting in its origins and
> counterpoise to then dominant reductionist stances, but inconsequential
> with its biological-cellular grounding --even in that very time, but even
> more in our times. I argued past months on the AP weakness regarding
> apoptosis & protein degradation, many genes rarely expressed along the life
> cycle, openness to obtain foreign dna from the environment, plasmids &
> phages uptake, horizontal gene transmission, multiple generation of gene
> novelties, sex & recombinations, etc. About information in AP, "signaling"
> is not accepted as such, but as "structural coupling with the niche" (so,
> nothing about an external information flow or the like). About the obvious
> need of, say, an energy flow there is no realization that a previous
> sensing of ALL those items is needed. The revolution in prokaryotic
> signaling brought by the discovery of "One Component Systems" (in the
> hundreds in each bacteria) in last two decades clarify that point--how the
> external substances are first "tasted" and later introjected. The
> interception of an information flow best adapted to the ongoing life cycle
> is continuously made.  So, the living cell is just "informational": in its
> self-production, in its relationship with the environment, and in its
> generation of multi-cell complexity.
> To be continued one of these days.
>
> Best regards,
> --Pedro
>
>  .   El 10/12/2025 a las 23:08, Krassimir Markov escribió:
>
> Dear Steve,
>
> I respect your opinion and understanding of the world through AE, but
> still there are some reasonable scientific boundaries that should not be
> crossed. Here is a small example.
>
> Air existed before we were born and, I hope, if there is no destructive
> war instigated by russia, it will continue to exist after our death. At the
> same time, without air we cannot live, i.e. we are an open system that
> constantly exchanges resources with the environment. In other words, living
> organisms are not autopoietic systems. To convince yourself of this
> statement, just stop breathing. The conviction in the truth of the
> statement will come to you only after a minute or two and you will probably
> accept that your operator should be written
>
> O=F(O, Input, Output).
>
> I am writing this in connection with your statement that "Material
> processes and interpretive activity are not alternatives; they are two
> sides of the same ecological dynamic. Neither can be shown to precede the
> other.” which I cannot accept as true.
>
> Just as there are no closed autopoietic systems, so there is no reality
> that cannot exist without interpretation.
>
> The ecological dynamic you are talking about is a mental structure and, of
> course, in it properly the mental structures that reflect the material
> processes and the mental structures that interpret them are dialectically
> connected in consciousness, and yes - they are two sides of a common mental
> structure, if we can even talk about sides in mental structures.
>
>
>
> Dear Eric,
>
> I completely agree with your thoughts. Indeed, the study of the processes
> of interaction between people is very important and has great significance.
> Unfortunately, my impression is that most researchers adhere to the deeply
> erroneous and inapplicable to humans Shannon's paradigm.
>
> Yes, the theory of signal transmission is wonderfully applied in technical
> data transmission systems, where the basic principle is "copy/paste". In
> other words, the image that is formed in the recipient's memory completely
> (100%!!!) coincides with the image in the sender's memory. Any deviation is
> considered an error and requires re-sending the data, as well as the
> application of error-resistant codes during transmission.
>
> In humans, this is absolutely impossible and inapplicable. "Copy/paste"
> cannot happen due to the nature of the interaction between people, which is
> at the level of meaning, and not at the level of signals (reflections). The
> sender (a person or group of people) externalizes their mental structures
> (for example, this letter), and the recipient reflects what they have
> received and gives it their own meaning. It is impossible in this process
> to obtain an exact copy of the image from the source's memory in the
> receiver's memory. Therefore, it is correct to speak of "information
> interaction" in people, and of "communication" in technical systems. I am
> attaching a slide from my lecture at the IS4SI 2025 Summit, which contains
> the brilliant thought of the Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov, expressed
> more than a century ago.
>
>
>
> With respect,
>
> Krassimir
>
>
> [image: image.png]
>
>
>
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$>
> Virus-free.www.avast.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing listFis at listas.unizar.eshttp://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas 
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.http://listas.unizar.es 
> ----------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis 
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas 
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es 
> ----------
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20251213/f404fd2d/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image.png
Type: image/png
Size: 141100 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20251213/f404fd2d/attachment-0001.png>