[Fis] Current remarks/Autopoiesis

[Pedro C. Marijuán]

Dear List,

When I hear on autopiesis, my impression is that many people continue to 
be blindly tied to a conceptualization, interesting in its origins and 
counterpoise to then dominant reductionist stances, but inconsequential 
with its biological-cellular grounding --even in that very time, but 
even more in our times. I argued past months on the AP weakness 
regarding apoptosis & protein degradation, many genes rarely expressed 
along the life cycle, openness to obtain foreign dna from the 
environment, plasmids & phages uptake, horizontal gene transmission, 
multiple generation of gene novelties, sex & recombinations, etc. About 
information in AP, "signaling" is not accepted as such, but as 
"structural coupling with the niche" (so, nothing about an external 
information flow or the like). About the obvious need of, say, an energy 
flow there is no realization that a previous sensing of ALL those items 
is needed. The revolution in prokaryotic signaling brought by the 
discovery of "One Component Systems" (in the hundreds in each bacteria) 
in last two decades clarify that point--how the external substances are 
first "tasted" and later introjected. The interception of an information 
flow best adapted to the ongoing life cycle is continuously made.  So, 
the living cell is just "informational": in its self-production, in its 
relationship with the environment, and in its generation of multi-cell 
complexity.
To be continued one of these days.

Best regards,
--Pedro

  .   El 10/12/2025 a las 23:08, Krassimir Markov escribió:
>
> Dear Steve,
>
> I respect your opinion and understanding of the world through AE, but 
> still there are some reasonable scientific boundaries that should not 
> be crossed. Here is a small example.
>
> Air existed before we were born and, I hope, if there is no 
> destructive war instigated by russia, it will continue to exist after 
> our death. At the same time, without air we cannot live, i.e. we are 
> an open system that constantly exchanges resources with the 
> environment. In other words, living organisms are not autopoietic 
> systems. To convince yourself of this statement, just stop breathing. 
> The conviction in the truth of the statement will come to you only 
> after a minute or two and you will probably accept that your operator 
> should be written
>
> O=F(O, Input, Output).
>
> I am writing this in connection with your statement that "Material 
> processes and interpretive activity are not alternatives; they are two 
> sides of the same ecological dynamic. Neither can be shown to precede 
> the other.” which I cannot accept as true.
>
> Just as there are no closed autopoietic systems, so there is no 
> reality that cannot exist without interpretation.
>
> The ecological dynamic you are talking about is a mental structure 
> and, of course, in it properly the mental structures that reflect the 
> material processes and the mental structures that interpret them are 
> dialectically connected in consciousness, and yes - they are two sides 
> of a common mental structure, if we can even talk about sides in 
> mental structures.
>
> Dear Eric,
>
> I completely agree with your thoughts. Indeed, the study of the 
> processes of interaction between people is very important and has 
> great significance. Unfortunately, my impression is that most 
> researchers adhere to the deeply erroneous and inapplicable to humans 
> Shannon's paradigm.
>
> Yes, the theory of signal transmission is wonderfully applied in 
> technical data transmission systems, where the basic principle is 
> "copy/paste". In other words, the image that is formed in the 
> recipient's memory completely (100%!!!) coincides with the image in 
> the sender's memory. Any deviation is considered an error and requires 
> re-sending the data, as well as the application of error-resistant 
> codes during transmission.
>
> In humans, this is absolutely impossible and inapplicable. 
> "Copy/paste" cannot happen due to the nature of the interaction 
> between people, which is at the level of meaning, and not at the level 
> of signals (reflections). The sender (a person or group of people) 
> externalizes their mental structures (for example, this letter), and 
> the recipient reflects what they have received and gives it their own 
> meaning. It is impossible in this process to obtain an exact copy of 
> the image from the source's memory in the receiver's memory. 
> Therefore, it is correct to speak of "information interaction" in 
> people, and of "communication" in technical systems. I am attaching a 
> slide from my lecture at the IS4SI 2025 Summit, which contains the 
> brilliant thought of the Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov, expressed 
> more than a century ago.
>
> With respect,
>
> Krassimir
>
>
> image.png
>
>
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$> 
> 	Virus-free.www.avast.com 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$> 
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis 
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas 
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es 
> ----------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20251212/316558f8/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image.png
Type: image/png
Size: 141100 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20251212/316558f8/attachment-0001.png>