[Fis] Current remarks

Thu Dec 11 15:24:57 CET 2025

Dear Krassimir et al, I understand your saying that autopoiesis and
homeostasis are distinctly different.....until you see them in the holistic
way that I am advocating for, beginning with the chemistry of hydrogen and
helium (Stellar Nucleosynthesis) being in balance with one another as the
prototypes for homeostasis. My 'take' on evolution is not Darwinian,
largely because as a biologist 'Survival of the Fittest' is not
testable/refutable experimentally, whereas my hypothesis is that evolution
largely occurs due to 'internal selection' due to physiologic stress
resulting in loss of homeostatic control of cellular energy. As a
consequence, the cells involved produce Radical Oxygen Species (Storr et
al) that cause gene mutations and duplications within the context of the
structural-functional physiologic trait involved. The capacity of the cells
to re-establish their homeostatic equipoise is what is described as
evolution, but description and association and correlation are not
'mechanism'. I have proposed that evolution *per se* is 'serial
homeostasis' based on the fundamental role of symbiogenesis as the means by
which the organism is able to maintain homeostatic equipoise within its
environment (Torday JS. Symbiogenesis redicts the monism of the cosmos.
Prog Biophys Mol Biol. 2024 Sep;191:58-62), prompted by the results of
exposure of differentiated lung and bone cells to microgravity, resulting
in (reversible) loss of their evolved phenotypes (Torday JS. Parathyroid
hormone-related protein is a gravisensor in lung and bone cell biology. Adv
Space Res. 2003;32(8):1569-76). So in brief, I am recapping David Bohm's
'Wholism'. I too have expended my FIS limit, so will have to hold off till
next week if there are comments/criticisms🫢.....Best to All, John

On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 8:28 AM Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Lou,
> 1. Thanks for saying the same thing as me - there are no closed
> autopoietic systems.
> 2. We both distinguish between the signs "=", "~" and "->", right?
> But let's not turn the FIS mailing list into an algebra course.
>
> Dear Plamen,
> The text by Pencho Slaveykov that I quoted is written in gold metal
> letters on marble above the entrance to the First High School in Sofia,
> Bulgaria, which bears his name.
> It's a pity that geniuses are rarely appreciated for their merits during
> their lifetime!
>
> Dear John,
> Homeostasis and autopoiesis are two fundamental yet distinct concepts that
> describe how living systems maintain themselves. While superficially
> similar—both involve self-regulation and organizational stability—they
> differ profoundly in scope and meaning.
> Homeostasis refers to the regulation of internal parameters to maintain
> equilibrium, a process that can exist even in non-living systems.
> Autopoiesis, by contrast, describes the continuous self-production of a
> system's components through a recursive network of processes, defining the
> system's very identity and autonomy.
> These seemingly similar concepts actually address different questions:
> homeostasis asks "How does a system stay stable?" while autopoiesis asks
> "How does a system remain itself?" Understanding this distinction reveals
> that while homeostasis characterizes life, autopoiesis may define it.
>
> This is my second letter this week. If necessary, I will continue next
> week.
>
> With respect,
> Krassimir
>
> На чт, 11.12.2025 г. в 14:49 JOHN TORDAY <jtorday at ucla.edu> написа:
>
>> Dear Lou et al., with all due respect, I am of the opinion that there is
>> an even deeper significance to Autopoiesis that comes from a holistic view
>> of Cosmology and evolution as a continuum. That is to say that the way in
>> which Stellar Nucleosynthesis (Hoyle, 1946) caused the formation of the
>> stars, the elements as their byproducts aligning in their exact order as
>> the 'logic' of the Cosmos.....and then some 10 billion years later along
>> came living beings that assimilated those elements, and thus the logic of
>> biology under the auspices of homeostasis (i.e. Autopoiesis) as the
>> exaptation of 'hydrogen-helium', exaptation being Gould and Vrba's evolutionary
>> concept where a trait that evolved for one purpose is co-opted for a new,
>> different use. Perhaps y'all could comment? Best, John
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 1:33 AM Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Folks,
>>> There seems here to be a misunderstanding about the meaning of
>>> autopoietic systems.
>>>
>>> Such systems always exist in some environment, getting their “parts”
>>> from that environment and returning some “parts” to the environment. What
>>> an equation like O ~ F(O) can mean is that the system structure is O and F
>>> is the process that happens to the system in relation to the environment.
>>> When we say that O ~ F(O) we mean that the structure is persevered across
>>> this process. We do not mean that the system is self-contained.
>>>
>>> Look at the original paper by Maturana, Uribe and Varela and
>>> particularly look at their very simple and profound model for autopoeisis
>>> consisting of an environment of “molecules” of two types: Ordinary
>>> molecules that have a probability of linking with one another in pairs.
>>> Catalysts whose proximity promotes linkage. Then in the course of time,
>>> protocells consisting of families of linked molecules, form around the
>>> catalysts. With the right balance of probabilities, these protocells
>>> maintain their spherical or circular structure over time, while losing and
>>> gaining individual molecules and even losing and gaining catalysts. Thus
>>> the structure of being spherical protocell remains ‘fixed’ across the
>>> vicissitudes of the molecular processes.
>>>
>>> This example is meant to be exemplary of the idea of autopoesis where a
>>> structure can arise in an evironment and become self-sustaining in relation
>>> to its own properties of renewal and use of that environment. Behind
>>> autopoieisis is a general lesson about what is possible in the notion of
>>> sustainability of systems and their environments.
>>> Best,
>>> Lou Kauffman
>>>
>>> On Dec 10, 2025, at 4:08 PM, Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Steve,
>>>
>>> I respect your opinion and understanding of the world through AE, but
>>> still there are some reasonable scientific boundaries that should not be
>>> crossed. Here is a small example.
>>>
>>> Air existed before we were born and, I hope, if there is no destructive
>>> war instigated by russia, it will continue to exist after our death. At the
>>> same time, without air we cannot live, i.e. we are an open system that
>>> constantly exchanges resources with the environment. In other words, living
>>> organisms are not autopoietic systems. To convince yourself of this
>>> statement, just stop breathing. The conviction in the truth of the
>>> statement will come to you only after a minute or two and you will probably
>>> accept that your operator should be written
>>>
>>> O=F(O, Input, Output).
>>>
>>> I am writing this in connection with your statement that "Material
>>> processes and interpretive activity are not alternatives; they are two
>>> sides of the same ecological dynamic. Neither can be shown to precede the
>>> other.” which I cannot accept as true.
>>>
>>> Just as there are no closed autopoietic systems, so there is no reality
>>> that cannot exist without interpretation.
>>>
>>> The ecological dynamic you are talking about is a mental structure and,
>>> of course, in it properly the mental structures that reflect the material
>>> processes and the mental structures that interpret them are dialectically
>>> connected in consciousness, and yes - they are two sides of a common mental
>>> structure, if we can even talk about sides in mental structures.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Eric,
>>>
>>> I completely agree with your thoughts. Indeed, the study of the
>>> processes of interaction between people is very important and has great
>>> significance. Unfortunately, my impression is that most researchers adhere
>>> to the deeply erroneous and inapplicable to humans Shannon's paradigm.
>>>
>>> Yes, the theory of signal transmission is wonderfully applied in
>>> technical data transmission systems, where the basic principle is
>>> "copy/paste". In other words, the image that is formed in the recipient's
>>> memory completely (100%!!!) coincides with the image in the sender's
>>> memory. Any deviation is considered an error and requires re-sending the
>>> data, as well as the application of error-resistant codes during
>>> transmission.
>>>
>>> In humans, this is absolutely impossible and inapplicable. "Copy/paste"
>>> cannot happen due to the nature of the interaction between people, which is
>>> at the level of meaning, and not at the level of signals (reflections). The
>>> sender (a person or group of people) externalizes their mental structures
>>> (for example, this letter), and the recipient reflects what they have
>>> received and gives it their own meaning. It is impossible in this process
>>> to obtain an exact copy of the image from the source's memory in the
>>> receiver's memory. Therefore, it is correct to speak of "information
>>> interaction" in people, and of "communication" in technical systems. I am
>>> attaching a slide from my lecture at the IS4SI 2025 Summit, which contains
>>> the brilliant thought of the Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov, expressed
>>> more than a century ago.
>>>
>>>
>>> With respect,
>>>
>>> Krassimir
>>>
>>>
>>> <image.png>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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