<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear List,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">When I hear on autopiesis, my
impression is that many people continue to be blindly tied to a
conceptualization, interesting in its origins and counterpoise to
then dominant reductionist stances, but inconsequential with its
biological-cellular grounding --even in that very time, but even
more in our times. I argued past months on the AP weakness
regarding apoptosis & protein degradation, many genes rarely
expressed along the life cycle, openness to obtain foreign dna
from the environment, plasmids & phages uptake, horizontal
gene transmission, multiple generation of gene novelties, sex
& recombinations, etc. About information in AP, "signaling" is
not accepted as such, but as "structural coupling with the niche"
(so, nothing about an external information flow or the like).
About the obvious need of, say, an energy flow there is no
realization that a previous sensing of ALL those items is needed.
The revolution in prokaryotic signaling brought by the discovery
of "One Component Systems" (in the hundreds in each bacteria) in
last two decades clarify that point--how the external substances
are first "tasted" and later introjected. The interception of an
information flow best adapted to the ongoing life cycle is
continuously made. So, the living cell is just "informational":
in its self-production, in its relationship with the environment,
and in its generation of multi-cell complexity.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">To be continued one of these days.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best regards,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--Pedro</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> . El 10/12/2025 a las 23:08,
Krassimir Markov escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKEQgkwdxfpnpV2rbso1AviDSmObsL5AJcQy8Czh54BxABcUBQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">Dear Steve,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">I respect your opinion and understanding
of the world through AE, but
still there are some reasonable scientific boundaries that
should not be
crossed. Here is a small example. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">Air existed before we were born and, I
hope, if there is no destructive
war instigated by russia, it will continue to exist after
our death. At the
same time, without air we cannot live, i.e. we are an open
system that
constantly exchanges resources with the environment. In
other words, living
organisms are not autopoietic systems. To convince yourself
of this statement,
just stop breathing. The conviction in the truth of the
statement will come to
you only after a minute or two and you will probably accept
that your operator
should be written</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">O=F(O, Input, Output).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">I am writing this in connection with
your statement that "Material
processes and interpretive activity are not alternatives;
they are two sides of
the same ecological dynamic. Neither can be shown to precede
the other.” which
I cannot accept as true.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">Just as there are no closed autopoietic
systems, so there is no reality
that cannot exist without interpretation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">The ecological dynamic you are
talking about is a mental structure and, of course, in it
properly the mental
structures that reflect the material processes and the
mental structures that
interpret them are dialectically connected in consciousness,
and yes - they are
two sides of a common mental structure, if we can even talk
about sides in
mental structures.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">Dear Eric,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">I completely agree with your thoughts.
Indeed, the study of the
processes of interaction between people is very important
and has great
significance. Unfortunately, my impression is that most
researchers adhere to
the deeply erroneous and inapplicable to humans Shannon's
paradigm.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">Yes, the theory of signal transmission
is wonderfully applied in
technical data transmission systems, where the basic
principle is
"copy/paste". In other words, the image that is formed in
the
recipient's memory completely (100%!!!) coincides with the
image in the
sender's memory. Any deviation is considered an error and
requires re-sending
the data, as well as the application of error-resistant
codes during
transmission.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">In humans, this is absolutely impossible
and inapplicable.
"Copy/paste" cannot happen due to the nature of the
interaction
between people, which is at the level of meaning, and not at
the level of
signals (reflections). The sender (a person or group of
people) externalizes
their mental structures (for example, this letter), and the
recipient reflects
what they have received and gives it their own meaning. It
is impossible in
this process to obtain an exact copy of the image from the
source's memory in
the receiver's memory. Therefore, it is correct to speak of
"information
interaction" in people, and of "communication" in technical
systems. I am
attaching a slide from my lecture at the IS4SI 2025 Summit,
which contains the
brilliant thought of the Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov,
expressed more than a
century ago.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">With respect,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black">Krassimir</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><span
style="color:black"><br>
</span></p>
<img src="cid:part1.oeUqviLv.0XYBxzM5@gmail.com" alt="image.png"
width="436" height="245" class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin:0cm 0cm 10pt;line-height:115%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,"sans-serif""><br>
</p>
</div>
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
<table style="border-top:1px solid #d3d4de">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><img
src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
alt="" width="46" height="29"
style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
moz-do-not-send="true"></a></td>
<td
style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free.<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$"
target="_blank" style="color:#4453ea"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.avast.com</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
</body>
</html>