[Fis] Fwd: Re: Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 8. Two Questions for Karl

Sun Jun 16 11:33:16 CEST 2024

---------- Forwarded message ---------
Von: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
Date: So., 16. Juni 2024, 11:28
Subject: Re: Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 8. Two Questions for Karl
To: Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>

I have no idea about these fine points.
The role of Mendel is to drive attention to the facts.

The interpretation of the facts is not in my remit.

As it happens, evidence shows that the rules on commutatibility are valid
on assemblies that remain inmovable. As soon as one distinguishes between
predecessor and successor, one does take care not to mix them up.

As to transformation of place into material and retour, this is established
knowledge. Look up e=m*c**2. The rules that allow the translation are
detailed in oeis.org/A242615. There you find the basis for a BAZAAR in
which any kind of property can be exchanged into any different kinds of
properties, subject to limits, ranges and thresholds. The 3 main exchanges
in the bazaar are: how similar, how diverse, how many. The terms of
exchange are heavily indexed by the 3rd factor.

You decide in which context you place the facts.

We have to do here with a funny version of the Rorschach test: the apparent
chaos among the numbers is not chaotic, and there is an inner relationship
among the values. (in contrast to the rorschach stimuli, which we define to
contain no inner substance /for the general public /).

So, whoever says an opinion about the patterns of natural numbers, she or
he will perform a coming out, by declaring that this pattern depicts e.g.
Energy, or Potential or Structure or Stability or Information. The fact is
that the patterns CAN be interpreted in any ways. This is the reason why
one tiptoes around saying information is energy or potential or or or,
because the meaning we ascribe to perception is dependent on the
spectator's inner organization of contexts.
There is an inner system of relations among the natural numbers, and there
is an inner system of relations among the ideas of the spectator.

Hope you find this helpful.

Karl

Tomorrow begins a new week. I must stay silent till midnight today.

joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> schrieb am So., 16. Juni
2024, 10:59:

> Dear Karl,
>
> As you know, I much appreciate the clarity with which you make your
> positions known. As a way of seeing how they might be made more general
> than I think they now are, could you please say
>
> 1. If *a + b = b + a* and if not why not?
> 2. Is *a* at T1 the same as *a *at T2?
>
> where *a* and *b* are informational entities of some kind.
>
> Thanks and best wishes,
> Joseph
>
>
>
> ----Message d'origine----
> De : karl.javorszky at gmail.com
> Date : 16/06/2024 - 00:03 (E)
> À : itheaiss at gmail.com
> Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es
> Objet : Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 8
>
> Very well Krassimir, thank you.
>
> Just a little remark:
>
> The tautometric concept of information is
> 1. Not two permutations combined but permutations combined with
> partitions;
> 2. Show me any of the many competing definitions of information that is
> based (rooted) in natural numbers;
> 3. Of course one can interpret patterns of natural numbers in many ways :
> the patterns of natural numbers are the factual reality, and the verbal
> notes different people assign to the same pattern are a multitude that
> comes from the people being different, not from the fact that the natural
> numbers are such as they are.
>
> Other people have also beautiful daughters and defitions, but this here
> tautometric daughter is not only as beautiful as all the others, but she
> has the advantage of being a direct descendant of the Mother of All
> Tautologies, her most exalted majesty of a+b=c, and this is a pedigree that
> is unique to her.
>
> I am extremely relaxed with regard to the competition in the business of
> giving a good definition of information. Like Mendel knew that he says
> something never heard before and that what he says is true and there is no
> way anyone could say anything that would be truer.
>
> I need to have your entry in a table
>
> Kate,  240615, cycles no, their lengths (#1, #2,...)
>
> in order to be able to name the properties that are to be watched.
>
>
>
>
>
> Krassimir Markov < itheaiss at gmail.com> schrieb am Sa., 15. Juni 2024,
> 23:41:
>
>> Dear Kate and Karl,
>> In his monograph, Mark Burgin reminded the story of the elephant and the
>> blind men who study it. This also applies to the many definitions of the
>> term "information". Each studies a separate element of the whole, and would
>> probably end up saying like the elder of the blind, the elephant is
>> unknowable!
>> If one tries to understand all the definitions and theories of
>> information, one will be disappointed. Simply because many of the
>> definitions are aphorisms to get around the problem. Such as "It's from
>> bit", "A difference that makes a difference", etc.
>> Actually, your specialty is very close to reality, I mean "mental models"
>> or the meaning a subject assigns to data, incorporating it into a given
>> mental model.
>> What Karl defines as information is a rather complex construction in
>> which two mental models (two permutations) are incorporated into a new
>> mental model of comparison. The result of this comparison, i.e. how much
>> the two models differ (the vector from one to the other) is "information"
>> according to Karl.
>> But these are only one kind of mental models. You probably know many
>> others. And they are all information! Emotional models are no exception to
>> the general rule. Because emotions also have a certain meaning.
>> Perhaps, in your circles, you use the term "gestalt" instead of mental
>> model, which is the same thing.
>> I hope I was useful to you.
>> With respect,
>> Krassimir
>>
>> На нд, 16.06.2024 г. в 0:25 < fis-request at listas.unizar.es> написа:
>>
>>> Send Fis mailing list submissions to
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>    1. Information as Sequencing and Difference (Katherine Peil Kauffman)
>>>    2. Re: Information as Sequencing and Difference (Karl Javorszky)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Katherine Peil Kauffman < ktpeil at outlook.com>
>>> To: fis < fis at listas.unizar.es>, Karl Javorszky <
>>> karl.javorszky at gmail.com>, "\"Pedro C. Marijuán\"" <
>>> pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
>>> Cc:
>>> Bcc:
>>> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 12:57:40 -0700
>>> Subject: [Fis] Information as Sequencing and Difference
>>> Dear Karl (et al),
>>> As one who often receives the fish eyes when trying to communicate such
>>> a divergent view of emotion, I can feel your frustration. But rest assured
>>> that my claim to want to understand information is legitimate. Indeed, I
>>> have spent a good deal of time researching everyone’s backstories to better
>>> understand the models on offer. Yours in particular (given the generous
>>> depth and quality of your responses), and I conducted the book sorting
>>> experiment for the third time yesterday just in case I was missing
>>> something.
>>>
>>> You have helped me realize the importance of permutational sorting and
>>> sequencing in of process of The Tao, with “sequencing” occurring as the
>>> timeless Domain 0 counterpart of the entropic Arrow of Time in Domain 1.
>>> You have also emphasized the foundational goal in AI engineering of
>>> minimizing the difference between between prediction (expected) and actual
>>> (observed) outcomes. I find these insights central to the hows and whys of
>>> living systems with emotional sentience - which are far more than
>>> prediction machines. (Some of my thoughts on this:
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0079610715001169__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T9bbgF40EKFZZy0iSPFOBlifjXvcG6oyGLcxj1Nk4u20ATH_llFJav1vpwSsNVZaBctk8u0NnFHdxtTMM6XgnPOvBTs$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0079610715001169__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XicUWaWWlWRriTTN21FGTH0xHCATELzDq-ukGcyXyKAjhe_9IdCkHdL4a3yP_0JVi0874AOsVjtDHnbxkw$> )
>>> and here:
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mvjIDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA144&dq=emotional*sentience*and*fractal*epistemology*2017*Katherine*Peil*Kauffman&ots=IQVlGLJsve&sig=xbv4olyNLKzqL9FiUIDfo4MBJ-Q*v=onepage&q&f=fals__;KysrKysrKysj!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T9bbgF40EKFZZy0iSPFOBlifjXvcG6oyGLcxj1Nk4u20ATH_llFJav1vpwSsNVZaBctk8u0NnFHdxtTMM6XgYDB-3eM$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mvjIDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA144&dq=emotional*sentience*and*fractal*epistemology*2017*Katherine*Peil*Kauffman&ots=IQVlGLJsve&sig=xbv4olyNLKzqL9FiUIDfo4MBJ-Q*v=onepage&q&f=fals__;KysrKysrKysj!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XicUWaWWlWRriTTN21FGTH0xHCATELzDq-ukGcyXyKAjhe_9IdCkHdL4a3yP_0JVi0874AOsVju0HfiMwg$>
>>> e
>>>
>>> I also find your offerings consonant with the work of Don Hoffman and
>>> Mike Levin, particularly in terms of “decorative permutations” which link
>>> repetition and symmetry with visual aesthetics.
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://medium.com/@ilakk2023/208-unveiling-beauty-in-order-a-mathematical-exploration-of-decorative-permutations-0d135cf3d706__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T9bbgF40EKFZZy0iSPFOBlifjXvcG6oyGLcxj1Nk4u20ATH_llFJav1vpwSsNVZaBctk8u0NnFHdxtTMM6Xgt-icckw$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://medium.com/@ilakk2023/208-unveiling-beauty-in-order-a-mathematical-exploration-of-decorative-permutations-0d135cf3d706__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XicUWaWWlWRriTTN21FGTH0xHCATELzDq-ukGcyXyKAjhe_9IdCkHdL4a3yP_0JVi0874AOsVjuY24fGIw$>
>>>
>>> Hoffman offers a "Markovian Dynamics of Consciousness" based upon the
>>> maths of decorative permutations that comes close to the evaluative and
>>> identity components of my Tao story, enhanced by Levin’s stuff on “the
>>> self". There’s a great conversation here between them here:
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsy8p435DqM__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T9bbgF40EKFZZy0iSPFOBlifjXvcG6oyGLcxj1Nk4u20ATH_llFJav1vpwSsNVZaBctk8u0NnFHdxtTMM6Xgho1wvZg$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsy8p435DqM__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XicUWaWWlWRriTTN21FGTH0xHCATELzDq-ukGcyXyKAjhe_9IdCkHdL4a3yP_0JVi0874AOsVjvr3aUTnA$>
>>>
>>>
>>> So once again, I thank you, and hope to be corrected if I’ve
>>> misrepresented your wisdom in any way. Oh, as and for getting pictures on
>>> FIS? Pedro had to “twinkle them” to make that happen. This is why I only
>>> did that once, to ease any additional burden. But indeed, pictures speak
>>> volumes.
>>>
>>> Fondly,
>>> Kung Fu Kate
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Karl Javorszky < karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
>>> To: Katherine Peil Kauffman < ktpeil at outlook.com>
>>> Cc: "\"Pedro C. Marijuán\"" < pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>, fis <
>>> fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> Bcc:
>>> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 23:25:01 +0200
>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] Information as Sequencing and Difference
>>> Lovely.
>>>
>>> You happen to be the first adept of the cult of the 12 books.
>>> Do tell for the record, your experiment with 12 random objects, how many
>>> cycles have been found in your setup?
>>>
>>> Would you like to get a chaperone (like Vergil for Dante) as you
>>> discover the world of periodic arithmetic? Not that I would be an official
>>> explainer on matters related to place, amount, prediction, types of matches
>>> between places and amounts, but the years of playing with order cause me to
>>> believe that my comments on the matter can save efforts in inventing
>>> (recognition of) simple but useful patterns found in the process of
>>> ordering and keeping it in order.
>>>
>>> If so, you can learn really basic and fundamental techniques fast, and
>>> don't have to do trial and error detours that this person already has
>>> investigated.
>>>
>>> So, how many cycles, which lengths?
>>>
>>>
>>> Katherine Peil Kauffman < ktpeil at outlook.com> schrieb am Sa., 15. Juni
>>> 2024, 21:57:
>>>
>>>> Dear Karl (et al),
>>>> As one who often receives the fish eyes when trying to communicate such
>>>> a divergent view of emotion, I can feel your frustration. But rest assured
>>>> that my claim to want to understand information is legitimate. Indeed, I
>>>> have spent a good deal of time researching everyone’s backstories to better
>>>> understand the models on offer. Yours in particular (given the generous
>>>> depth and quality of your responses), and I conducted the book sorting
>>>> experiment for the third time yesterday just in case I was missing
>>>> something.
>>>>
>>>> You have helped me realize the importance of permutational sorting and
>>>> sequencing in of process of The Tao, with “sequencing” occurring as the
>>>> timeless Domain 0 counterpart of the entropic Arrow of Time in Domain 1.
>>>> You have also emphasized the foundational goal in AI engineering of
>>>> minimizing the difference between between prediction (expected) and actual
>>>> (observed) outcomes. I find these insights central to the hows and whys of
>>>> living systems with emotional sentience - which are far more than
>>>> prediction machines. (Some of my thoughts on this:
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0079610715001169__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T9bbgF40EKFZZy0iSPFOBlifjXvcG6oyGLcxj1Nk4u20ATH_llFJav1vpwSsNVZaBctk8u0NnFHdxtTMM6XgnPOvBTs$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0079610715001169__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Sg8rAh4BkyEWWsC092VLjV88StJq6VhWf8rBX00nNusObCrXshLHc48SNmGD6DoMssW7fRHEAeyVG966uR1hmtSQXos$> )
>>>> and here:
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mvjIDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA144&dq=emotional*sentience*and*fractal*epistemology*2017*Katherine*Peil*Kauffman&ots=IQVlGLJsve&sig=xbv4olyNLKzqL9FiUIDfo4MBJ-Q*v=onepage&q&f=fals__;KysrKysrKysj!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T9bbgF40EKFZZy0iSPFOBlifjXvcG6oyGLcxj1Nk4u20ATH_llFJav1vpwSsNVZaBctk8u0NnFHdxtTMM6XgYDB-3eM$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mvjIDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA144&dq=emotional*sentience*and*fractal*epistemology*2017*Katherine*Peil*Kauffman&ots=IQVlGLJsve&sig=xbv4olyNLKzqL9FiUIDfo4MBJ-Q*v=onepage&q&f=fals__;KysrKysrKysj!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Sg8rAh4BkyEWWsC092VLjV88StJq6VhWf8rBX00nNusObCrXshLHc48SNmGD6DoMssW7fRHEAeyVG966uR1h2mBg4Qg$>
>>>> e
>>>>
>>>> I also find your offerings consonant with the work of Don Hoffman and
>>>> Mike Levin, particularly in terms of “decorative permutations” which link
>>>> repetition and symmetry with visual aesthetics.
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://medium.com/@ilakk2023/208-unveiling-beauty-in-order-a-mathematical-exploration-of-decorative-permutations-0d135cf3d706__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T9bbgF40EKFZZy0iSPFOBlifjXvcG6oyGLcxj1Nk4u20ATH_llFJav1vpwSsNVZaBctk8u0NnFHdxtTMM6Xgt-icckw$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://medium.com/@ilakk2023/208-unveiling-beauty-in-order-a-mathematical-exploration-of-decorative-permutations-0d135cf3d706__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Sg8rAh4BkyEWWsC092VLjV88StJq6VhWf8rBX00nNusObCrXshLHc48SNmGD6DoMssW7fRHEAeyVG966uR1hXILBnqU$>
>>>>
>>>> Hoffman offers a "Markovian Dynamics of Consciousness" based upon the
>>>> maths of decorative permutations that comes close to the evaluative and
>>>> identity components of my Tao story, enhanced by Levin’s stuff on “the
>>>> self". There’s a great conversation here between them here:
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsy8p435DqM__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T9bbgF40EKFZZy0iSPFOBlifjXvcG6oyGLcxj1Nk4u20ATH_llFJav1vpwSsNVZaBctk8u0NnFHdxtTMM6Xgho1wvZg$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsy8p435DqM__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Sg8rAh4BkyEWWsC092VLjV88StJq6VhWf8rBX00nNusObCrXshLHc48SNmGD6DoMssW7fRHEAeyVG966uR1h9XHBZJw$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So once again, I thank you, and hope to be corrected if I’ve
>>>> misrepresented your wisdom in any way. Oh, as and for getting pictures on
>>>> FIS? Pedro had to “twinkle them” to make that happen. This is why I only
>>>> did that once, to ease any additional burden. But indeed, pictures speak
>>>> volumes.
>>>>
>>>> Fondly,
>>>> Kung Fu Kate
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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