[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 8. Two Questions for Karl

Sun Jun 16 10:59:50 CEST 2024

Dear Karl,
As you know, I much appreciate the clarity with which you make your positions known. As a way of seeing how they might be made more general than I think they now are, could you please say
1. If a + b = b + a and if not why not?
2. Is a at T1 the same as a at T2?
where a and b are informational entities of some kind.
Thanks and best wishes,
Joseph
----Message d'origine----
De : karl.javorszky at gmail.com
Date : 16/06/2024 - 00:03 (E)
À : itheaiss at gmail.com
Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es
Objet : Re: [Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 113, Issue 8
 Very well Krassimir, thank you.

  Just a little remark:

  The tautometric concept of information is 

  1. Not two permutations combined but permutations combined with partitions;

  2. Show me any of the many competing definitions of information that is based (rooted) in natural numbers;

  3. Of course one can interpret patterns of natural numbers in many ways : the patterns of natural numbers are the factual reality, and the verbal notes different people assign to the same pattern are a multitude that comes from the people being different, not from the fact that the natural numbers are such as they are. 

  Other people have also beautiful daughters and defitions, but this here tautometric daughter is not only as beautiful as all the others, but she has the advantage of being a direct descendant of the Mother of All Tautologies, her most exalted majesty of a+b=c, and this is a pedigree that is unique to her. 

  I am extremely relaxed with regard to the competition in the business of giving a good definition of information. Like Mendel knew that he says something never heard before and that what he says is true and there is no way anyone could say anything that would be truer. 

  I need to have your entry in a table 

  Kate,  240615, cycles no, their lengths (#1, #2,...) 

  in order to be able to name the properties that are to be watched. 

  Krassimir Markov <
  itheaiss at gmail.com> schrieb am Sa., 15. Juni 2024, 23:41:

   Dear Kate and Karl,
In his monograph, Mark Burgin reminded the story of the elephant and the blind men who study it. This also applies to the many definitions of the term "information". Each studies a separate element of the whole, and would probably end up saying like the elder of the blind, the elephant is unknowable!
If one tries to understand all the definitions and theories of information, one will be disappointed. Simply because many of the definitions are aphorisms to get around the problem. Such as "It's from bit", "A difference that makes a difference", etc.
Actually, your specialty is very close to reality, I mean "mental models" or the meaning a subject assigns to data, incorporating it into a given mental model.
What Karl defines as information is a rather complex construction in which two mental models (two permutations) are incorporated into a new mental model of comparison. The result of this comparison, i.e. how much the two models differ (the vector from one to the other) is "information" according to Karl.
But these are only one kind of mental models. You probably know many others. And they are all information! Emotional models are no exception to the general rule. Because emotions also have a certain meaning.
Perhaps, in your circles, you use the term "gestalt" instead of mental model, which is the same thing.
I hope I was useful to you.
With respect,
Krassimir

    На нд, 16.06.2024 г. в 0:25 <
    fis-request at listas.unizar.es> написа:

    Send Fis mailing list submissions to

    fis at listas.unizar.es

 To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

    http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

 or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

    fis-request at listas.unizar.es

 You can reach the person managing the list at

    fis-owner at listas.unizar.es

 When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific

 than "Re: Contents of Fis digest..."

 Today's Topics:

    1. Information as Sequencing and Difference (Katherine Peil Kauffman)

    2. Re: Information as Sequencing and Difference (Karl Javorszky)

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Katherine Peil Kauffman <
    ktpeil at outlook.com>

To: fis <
    fis at listas.unizar.es>, Karl Javorszky <
    karl.javorszky at gmail.com>, "\"Pedro C. Marijuán\"" <
    pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>

Cc: 

Bcc: 

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 12:57:40 -0700

Subject: [Fis] Information as Sequencing and Difference

     Dear Karl (et al),

      As one who often receives the fish eyes when trying to communicate such a divergent view of emotion, I can feel your frustration. But rest assured that my claim to want to understand information is legitimate. Indeed, I have spent a good deal of time researching everyone’s backstories to better understand the models on offer. Yours in particular (given the generous depth and quality of your responses), and I conducted the book sorting experiment for the third time yesterday just in case I was missing something.

      You have helped me realize the importance of permutational sorting and sequencing in of process of The Tao, with “sequencing” occurring as the timeless Domain 0 counterpart of the entropic Arrow of Time in Domain 1. You have also emphasized the foundational goal in AI engineering of minimizing the difference between between prediction (expected) and actual (observed) outcomes. I find these insights central to the hows and whys of living systems with emotional sentience - which are far more than prediction machines. (Some of my thoughts on this: 
      https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0079610715001169__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XHbLIt-wGrW5F_YNmF5MaJlhqUz3WNhcoddjSrVE51TBiu4Oksa-QWm19QaSdVE0nlS5caSbqqGrPEeOu17Y_Y2JYSM$  ) and here: 
      https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mvjIDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA144&dq=emotional*sentience*and*fractal*epistemology*2017*Katherine*Peil*Kauffman&ots=IQVlGLJsve&sig=xbv4olyNLKzqL9FiUIDfo4MBJ-Q*v=onepage&q&f=fals__;KysrKysrKysj!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XHbLIt-wGrW5F_YNmF5MaJlhqUz3WNhcoddjSrVE51TBiu4Oksa-QWm19QaSdVE0nlS5caSbqqGrPEeOu17Y5jwRQnI$  e

      I also find your offerings consonant with the work of Don Hoffman and Mike Levin, particularly in terms of “decorative permutations” which link repetition and symmetry with visual aesthetics. 
      https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://medium.com/@ilakk2023/208-unveiling-beauty-in-order-a-mathematical-exploration-of-decorative-permutations-0d135cf3d706__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XHbLIt-wGrW5F_YNmF5MaJlhqUz3WNhcoddjSrVE51TBiu4Oksa-QWm19QaSdVE0nlS5caSbqqGrPEeOu17Y90JDNrk$  

      Hoffman offers a "Markovian Dynamics of Consciousness" based upon the maths of decorative permutations that comes close to the evaluative and identity components of my Tao story, enhanced by Levin’s stuff on “the self". There’s a great conversation here between them here: 
      https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsy8p435DqM__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XHbLIt-wGrW5F_YNmF5MaJlhqUz3WNhcoddjSrVE51TBiu4Oksa-QWm19QaSdVE0nlS5caSbqqGrPEeOu17YbIh7Eto$  

      So once again, I thank you, and hope to be corrected if I’ve misrepresented your wisdom in any way. Oh, as and for getting pictures on FIS? Pedro had to “twinkle them” to make that happen. This is why I only did that once, to ease any additional burden. But indeed, pictures speak volumes.

      Fondly,

      Kung Fu Kate

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Karl Javorszky <
    karl.javorszky at gmail.com>

To: Katherine Peil Kauffman <
    ktpeil at outlook.com>

Cc: "\"Pedro C. Marijuán\"" <
    pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>, fis <
    fis at listas.unizar.es>

Bcc: 

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 23:25:01 +0200

Subject: Re: [Fis] Information as Sequencing and Difference

     Lovely.

      You happen to be the first adept of the cult of the 12 books. 

      Do tell for the record, your experiment with 12 random objects, how many cycles have been found in your setup?

      Would you like to get a chaperone (like Vergil for Dante) as you discover the world of periodic arithmetic? Not that I would be an official explainer on matters related to place, amount, prediction, types of matches between places and amounts, but the years of playing with order cause me to believe that my comments on the matter can save efforts in inventing (recognition of) simple but useful patterns found in the process of ordering and keeping it in order.

      If so, you can learn really basic and fundamental techniques fast, and don't have to do trial and error detours that this person already has investigated. 

      So, how many cycles, which lengths?

      Katherine Peil Kauffman <
      ktpeil at outlook.com> schrieb am Sa., 15. Juni 2024, 21:57:

       Dear Karl (et al),

        As one who often receives the fish eyes when trying to communicate such a divergent view of emotion, I can feel your frustration. But rest assured that my claim to want to understand information is legitimate. Indeed, I have spent a good deal of time researching everyone’s backstories to better understand the models on offer. Yours in particular (given the generous depth and quality of your responses), and I conducted the book sorting experiment for the third time yesterday just in case I was missing something.

        You have helped me realize the importance of permutational sorting and sequencing in of process of The Tao, with “sequencing” occurring as the timeless Domain 0 counterpart of the entropic Arrow of Time in Domain 1. You have also emphasized the foundational goal in AI engineering of minimizing the difference between between prediction (expected) and actual (observed) outcomes. I find these insights central to the hows and whys of living systems with emotional sentience - which are far more than prediction machines. (Some of my thoughts on this: 
        https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0079610715001169__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XHbLIt-wGrW5F_YNmF5MaJlhqUz3WNhcoddjSrVE51TBiu4Oksa-QWm19QaSdVE0nlS5caSbqqGrPEeOu17Y_Y2JYSM$  ) and here: 
        https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=mvjIDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA144&dq=emotional*sentience*and*fractal*epistemology*2017*Katherine*Peil*Kauffman&ots=IQVlGLJsve&sig=xbv4olyNLKzqL9FiUIDfo4MBJ-Q*v=onepage&q&f=fals__;KysrKysrKysj!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XHbLIt-wGrW5F_YNmF5MaJlhqUz3WNhcoddjSrVE51TBiu4Oksa-QWm19QaSdVE0nlS5caSbqqGrPEeOu17Y5jwRQnI$  e

        I also find your offerings consonant with the work of Don Hoffman and Mike Levin, particularly in terms of “decorative permutations” which link repetition and symmetry with visual aesthetics. 
        https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://medium.com/@ilakk2023/208-unveiling-beauty-in-order-a-mathematical-exploration-of-decorative-permutations-0d135cf3d706__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XHbLIt-wGrW5F_YNmF5MaJlhqUz3WNhcoddjSrVE51TBiu4Oksa-QWm19QaSdVE0nlS5caSbqqGrPEeOu17Y90JDNrk$  

        Hoffman offers a "Markovian Dynamics of Consciousness" based upon the maths of decorative permutations that comes close to the evaluative and identity components of my Tao story, enhanced by Levin’s stuff on “the self". There’s a great conversation here between them here: 
        https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsy8p435DqM__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XHbLIt-wGrW5F_YNmF5MaJlhqUz3WNhcoddjSrVE51TBiu4Oksa-QWm19QaSdVE0nlS5caSbqqGrPEeOu17YbIh7Eto$  

        So once again, I thank you, and hope to be corrected if I’ve misrepresented your wisdom in any way. Oh, as and for getting pictures on FIS? Pedro had to “twinkle them” to make that happen. This is why I only did that once, to ease any additional burden. But indeed, pictures speak volumes.

        Fondly,

        Kung Fu Kate

     _______________________________________________

 Fis mailing list

    Fis at listas.unizar.es

    http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

   _______________________________________________

 Fis mailing list

  Fis at listas.unizar.es

  http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis

 ----------

 INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

 Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.

 Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: 
  https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas

 Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.

  http://listas.unizar.es

 ----------

_______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis at listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ---------- INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza. Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee. http://listas.unizar.es ---------- 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20240616/0dde37e6/attachment-0001.html>