[Fis] With or without math?

[Pedro C. Marijuán]

Dear All,

First, let me say in response to Joseph that I was referring to 
MINI-essays, more or less the way the discussion is going currently, 
with well elaborated comments rather than with fast-furious short 
interleavings. Thanks to all discussants for the neat exchanges.

Well, about reducing life fundamentals to thermodynamic work (Stuart's: 
"Living systems do thermodynamic work to construct themselves as 
physical entities") it may be OK, but it seems only partially correct, 
for it leaves aside --among other things-- the crucial role of the 
"information flows" in cellular organization. If we remind Morowitz's 
"energy flow", now we may legitimately inquire about its germane, 
intertwined "information flow". I am not referring to Crick's Central 
Dogma on the unidirectional, internal info flow DNA-RNA-proteins, but 
basically to the new phenomena paradigmatically found around cell 
signaling in prokaryotes.  As Ulrich, Galpering, Koonin and others found 
one decade ago or so, relatively simple cells such as E.coli count with 
a very high number of what has been called "One Component Systems" (130 
or so, apart from the previously well known 2 comp.sys., and the 3 
comp-sys, far less numerous). Consequence: every metabolic item to be 
processed by the cell has to be previously recognized by a specific OCS 
(and then a series of ad hoc enzymes or channels or transporters that 
will be expressed). The cell reads its environment and "tastes" all its 
potential affordances-foodies before any further ingestion or processing 
of stuff. Thus, the energy flow is preceded by an intercepted 
information flow, and both are perfectly intertwined to perform the 
advancement of the life cycle. Perhaps not much different from what we 
do with our life cycles?

There is an evolutionary intensification on that external "information 
flow" intercepted by cells. The far more complex signaling system of 
eukaryotic cells allows fantastic performances of cell differentiation, 
specialization, tissues, etc., as Eric's insightfully comments below. 
But in spite of all the multicellular complexity achieved by organisms 
it is intriguing --and enigmatic-- the obligate return to unicellular 
forms of life in every generation, the gametes (what Karl was asking a 
while ago on sperm!). John Torday and William Hayes (occasionally also 
posting in this list) have provided insightful arguments about this 
obligate return. Without it, the evolutionary "adjacent possible" would 
collapse into repetitive monotony, or worse, into degeneration and 
extinction.

And to conclude, some species have taken these surrounding info flows at 
their paroxysm. We, the social, the communicative, the talkative, the 
media addict, the compulsive list discussants, etc.etc.
Best--Pedro

PS. I have penned a few papers on this alternative "biosemiotics" that 
follows the external info flow (rather than the conventional flow of the 
Central Dogma). Available on request--or just google a little bit!


El 10/01/2024 a las 9:59, Eric Werner escribió:
>
> Dear Stu and All you wonderful intelligent beings,
>
> It is amazing how consistently, accurately and even stubbornly embryos 
> of a species develop into their unique unambiguous form.  This reminds 
> one if not of equations but of formal mathematical systems that may be 
> applied to understand this complex process.  The advantage of 
> abstraction is that it permits us to understand the somewhat indefinite.
>
> Deduction also used in exchange for reasoning, a much broader form of 
> logic.  In that sense life may indeed be very logical. Let me be a bit 
> more provocative:  We are the artists use mathematical methods to 
> describe and understand, while life uses deduction directly to infer 
> the morphology of the embryo from the information in the genome.
>
> To reduce life to thermodynamic work really confuses levels of 
> information and ontology, as physicists are tempted to do when over 
> applying an area to where it not longer fits.  The Procrustean bed of 
> physics may cut off the very limbs or spark of life that gives it its 
> unique qualities.
>
> That is not to say that physics is irrelevant and I am snuggling up to 
> spiritualists or any other religion.  Rather it needs to be integrated 
> into the Kantian whole that Stu correctly emphasizes.
>
> We need to integrate information, physics, intentions, cooperative 
> generative capacities of multiple agents via communicative 
> organizations as wholes.  I am getting at viewing embryos as multi 
> agent communicating systems, as a form of social being.
>
> Add to that indefinite phase spaces where possibilities are no longer 
> set, well...
>
> That's  bit of work ahead of us!
>
> -Eric
>
> On 1/9/24 9:00 PM, Louis Kauffman wrote:
>> I never said Nature engages in deduction, except in her variously distributed minds.
>> (Put this to next week if necessary.)
>>
>>> On Jan 9, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Stuart Kauffman<stukauffman at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Lou and Krassimir. And/But….
>>>
>>> Living systems are not formal deductions. Living systems do thermodynamic work to construct themselves as physical entities. The evolving biosphere really is a non-deducible propagating construction, not an entailed deduction. Mere formal deduction constructs nothing physical, que no? Living cells are not merely passive cognizes. As open non-equilibrium chemical reaction systems they must eat or die.
>>> BES
>>> Stu
>>>
>>>> On Jan 9, 2024, at 9:50 AM, Louis Kauffman<loukau at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Krassimir,
>>>> Yes. With!
>>>> But if ‘It from Bit” means a participatory universe as with Wheeler, then we need to have
>>>> FormalMath+Cognizers
>>>> to understand and work with it.
>>>> In fact Mathematics as a Way of Thinking
>>>> is indeed Formality+Cognition.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Lou
>>>> P.S. I have a slideshow related to this theme. I will send it to Krassimir. If anyone else would like to see it, just write privately to me at
>>>> loukau at gmail.com
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> -- 
> /Dr. Eric Werner
> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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