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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear All,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">First, let me say in response to Joseph
that I was referring to MINI-essays, more or less the way the
discussion is going currently, with well elaborated comments
rather than with fast-furious short interleavings. Thanks to all
discussants for the neat exchanges. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Well, about reducing life fundamentals
to thermodynamic work (Stuart's: "Living systems do thermodynamic
work to construct themselves as physical entities") it may be OK,
but it seems only partially correct, for it leaves aside --among
other things-- the crucial role of the "information flows" in
cellular organization. If we remind Morowitz's "energy flow", now
we may legitimately inquire about its germane, intertwined
"information flow". I am not referring to Crick's Central Dogma on
the unidirectional, internal info flow DNA-RNA-proteins, but
basically to the new phenomena paradigmatically found around cell
signaling in prokaryotes. As Ulrich, Galpering, Koonin and others
found one decade ago or so, relatively simple cells such as E.coli
count with a very high number of what has been called "One
Component Systems" (130 or so, apart from the previously well
known 2 comp.sys., and the 3 comp-sys, far less numerous).
Consequence: every metabolic item to be processed by the cell has
to be previously recognized by a specific OCS (and then a series
of ad hoc enzymes or channels or transporters that will be
expressed). The cell reads its environment and "tastes" all its
potential affordances-foodies before any further ingestion or
processing of stuff. Thus, the energy flow is preceded by an
intercepted information flow, and both are perfectly intertwined
to perform the advancement of the life cycle. Perhaps not much
different from what we do with our life cycles?</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">There is an evolutionary
intensification on that external "information flow" intercepted by
cells. The far more complex signaling system of eukaryotic cells
allows fantastic performances of cell differentiation,
specialization, tissues, etc., as Eric's insightfully comments
below. But in spite of all the multicellular complexity achieved
by organisms it is intriguing --and enigmatic-- the obligate
return to unicellular forms of life in every generation, the
gametes (what Karl was asking a while ago on sperm!). John Torday
and William Hayes (occasionally also posting in this list) have
provided insightful arguments about this obligate return. Without
it, the evolutionary "adjacent possible" would collapse into
repetitive monotony, or worse, into degeneration and extinction.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And to conclude, some species have
taken these surrounding info flows at their paroxysm. We, the
social, the communicative, the talkative, the media addict, the
compulsive list discussants, etc.etc.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best--Pedro</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">PS. I have penned a few papers on this
alternative "biosemiotics" that follows the external info flow
(rather than the conventional flow of the Central Dogma).
Available on request--or just google a little bit!<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 10/01/2024 a las 9:59, Eric Werner
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01553caa-98d2-441f-81dd-b42dfdd78a12@oarf.org">
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<p>Dear Stu and All you wonderful intelligent beings,</p>
<p>It is amazing how consistently, accurately and even stubbornly
embryos of a species develop into their unique unambiguous
form. This reminds one if not of equations but of formal
mathematical systems that may be applied to understand this
complex process. The advantage of abstraction is that it
permits us to understand the somewhat indefinite. <br>
</p>
<p>Deduction also used in exchange for reasoning, a much broader
form of logic. In that sense life may indeed be very logical.
Let me be a bit more provocative: We are the artists use
mathematical methods to describe and understand, while life uses
deduction directly to infer the morphology of the embryo from
the information in the genome. </p>
<p>To reduce life to thermodynamic work really confuses levels of
information and ontology, as physicists are tempted to do when
over applying an area to where it not longer fits. The
Procrustean bed of physics may cut off the very limbs or spark
of life that gives it its unique qualities. <br>
</p>
<p>That is not to say that physics is irrelevant and I am
snuggling up to spiritualists or any other religion. Rather it
needs to be integrated into the Kantian whole that Stu correctly
emphasizes. <br>
</p>
<p>We need to integrate information, physics, intentions,
cooperative generative capacities of multiple agents via
communicative organizations as wholes. I am getting at viewing
embryos as multi agent communicating systems, as a form of
social being. <br>
</p>
<p>Add to that indefinite phase spaces where possibilities are no
longer set, well... <br>
</p>
<p>That's bit of work ahead of us!</p>
<p>-Eric </p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/9/24 9:00 PM, Louis Kauffman
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:49CB43EB-26B0-41CC-89FD-F20E977EAD9C@gmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I never said Nature engages in deduction, except in her variously distributed minds.
(Put this to next week if necessary.)
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Jan 9, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Stuart Kauffman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stukauffman@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><stukauffman@gmail.com></a> wrote:
Thanks Lou and Krassimir. And/But….
Living systems are not formal deductions. Living systems do thermodynamic work to construct themselves as physical entities. The evolving biosphere really is a non-deducible propagating construction, not an entailed deduction. Mere formal deduction constructs nothing physical, que no? Living cells are not merely passive cognizes. As open non-equilibrium chemical reaction systems they must eat or die.
BES
Stu
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Jan 9, 2024, at 9:50 AM, Louis Kauffman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><loukau@gmail.com></a> wrote:
Dear Krassimir,
Yes. With!
But if ‘It from Bit” means a participatory universe as with Wheeler, then we need to have
FormalMath+Cognizers
to understand and work with it.
In fact Mathematics as a Way of Thinking
is indeed Formality+Cognition.
Best,
Lou
P.S. I have a slideshow related to this theme. I will send it to Krassimir. If anyone else would like to see it, just write privately to me at
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:loukau@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">loukau@gmail.com</a>
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i> Dr. Eric Werner <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VTrTEaFEauuTGhV1AvzTZz3oWuyWpEctreKO-DIsXX5Riq-pCPnYOwWzXEXKKbXBs3BmquMs5TIrSvtqConDISEN0Urf$" moz-do-not-send="true">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
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</i></div>
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