[Fis] Fwd: Re: With or without math? And logic?

Wed Jan 10 17:53:24 CET 2024

Please do write the essay.

If it deals with
a set of principles which, far from being "just" philosophy, have embedded
in them the realities of both existence and thought

then I am very interested.

To have readings of the symbol set that appear Interdependent varaints of
potential and reality is cool.

Karl

joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> schrieb am Mi., 10. Jän.
2024, 17:26:

> Dear Eric, Stu and Lou,
>
> In this note especially, as well as in Stu's of Jan 6 at 3:49 and Lou's of
> Jan 7 at 10:01, questions of principle and laws in science are raised that
> I feel are evolving in parallel with their application to information as
> such. In this process, Stu states a bit apodictically that logic comes last.
>
> But what logic? I submit that the properties of such a logic are hinted at
> in the last paragraph of Stu's note "...this becoming is NOT AI, which is
> algorithmic."
>
> Eric says in this note that what is needed is a broader form of logic,
> which goes beyond the limitations of standard, propositional,
> truth-functional logic.
>
> Those of you who have been following Pedro's initiative may recall that I
> have referred on several occasions to a non-standard logic of processes,
> grounded in the existence in physics of their parts which instantiate
> movement from actuality to potentiality and *vice  versa. *I have tried
> to show that information, better informing follows the same rules.
> Obviously, in a pendulum, the movement from actual to potential energy; the
> potentials involved in an oxidation-reduction reaction; and
> passivation-activation processes in nerve cells are at different "levels".
> But they are all pictures of change, and their logic is a logic of change
> in physical, ontological reality.
>
> This logic (I claim), captures the information content in a painting in
> its aspect of its capacity to move us, something "not there", as Terrence
> would say, but nevertheless potentially, causally efficient.
>
> In my view, Eric's last sentence could be emended as follows:  "In (those)
> definite phase spaces it is not so much the *possibilities* which are no
> longer set but the *probabilities *, and we remain accordingly in a
> universe in which "information and intention" are integratable if not (yet)
> integrated.
> Some, many physicists may have emulated Procrustes, but physics_as_change
> has not, not as I have tried  to describe it.
>
> The "essay" form which Pedro npw suggests is not yet a familiar one for
> me. Should I promise a longer note? To anticipate briefly, I would try to
> show how the lemmic logic of Nagarjuna and Yamauchi set out a set of
> principles which, far from being "just" philosophy, have embedded in them
> the realities of both existence and thought.
>
> I would look forward to comments and above all criticisms.
>
> Best wishes,
> Joseph
>
>
> ----Message d'origine----Nagr
> De : eric.werner at oarf.org
> Date : 10/01/2024 - 09:59 (E)
> À : loukau at gmail.com, stukauffman at gmail.com
> Cc : pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com, fis at listas.unizar.es,
> gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se, itheaiss at gmail.com
> Objet : Re: [Fis] With or without math?
>
> Dear Stu and All you wonderful intelligent beings,
>
> It is amazing how consistently, accurately and even stubbornly  embryos of
> a species develop into their unique unambiguous form.  This reminds one if
> not of equations but of formal mathematical systems that may be applied to
> understand this complex process.  The advantage of abstraction is that it
> permits us to understand the somewhat indefinite.
>
> Deduction also used in exchange for reasoning, a much broader form of
> logic.  In that sense life may indeed be very logical. Let me be a bit more
> provocative:  We are the artists use mathematical methods to describe and
> understand, while life uses deduction directly to infer the morphology of
> the embryo from the information in the genome.
>
> To reduce life to thermodynamic work really confuses levels of information
> and ontology, as physicists are tempted to do when over applying an area to
> where it not longer fits.  The Procrustean bed of physics may cut off the
> very limbs or spark of life that gives it its unique qualities.
>
> That is not to say that physics is irrelevant and I am snuggling up to
> spiritualists or any other religion.  Rather it needs to be integrated into
> the Kantian whole that Stu correctly emphasizes.
>
> We need to integrate information, physics, intentions, cooperative
> generative capacities of multiple agents via communicative organizations as
> wholes.  I am getting at viewing embryos as multi agent communicating
> systems, as a form of social being.
>
> Add to that indefinite phase spaces where possibilities are no longer set,
> well...
>
> That's  bit of work ahead of us!
>
> -Eric
>
> On 1/9/24 9:00 PM, Louis Kauffman wrote:
>
> I never said Nature engages in deduction, except in her variously distributed minds.
> (Put this to next week if necessary.)
>
>
> On Jan 9, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Lou and Krassimir. And/But….
>
> Living systems are not formal deductions. Living systems do thermodynamic work to construct themselves as physical entities. The evolving biosphere really is a non-deducible propagating construction, not an entailed deduction. Mere formal deduction constructs nothing physical, que no? Living cells are not merely passive cognizes. As open non-equilibrium chemical reaction systems they must eat or die.
> BES
> Stu
>
>
> On Jan 9, 2024, at 9:50 AM, Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Krassimir,
> Yes. With!
> But if ‘It from Bit” means a participatory universe as with Wheeler, then we need to have
> FormalMath+Cognizers
> to understand and work with it.
> In fact Mathematics as a Way of Thinking
> is indeed Formality+Cognition.
> Best,
> Lou
> P.S. I have a slideshow related to this theme. I will send it to Krassimir. If anyone else would like to see it, just write privately to me atloukau at gmail.com
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