[Fis] [External] Re: " express matter and energy in terms of information"

Wed Feb 28 14:32:43 CET 2024

Hi All, I have for years adopted W. Heisenberg’s interpretation of the quantum state as “potentia standing ghost- like between a dream and reality. From this I get to, Res potentia, ontologically real Possibles that are not true or false, and Res extensa, ontologically real Actuals that are true or false. Then collapse of the wave function is a conversion of a Possible to an Actual. Physical cause of collapse is almost ruled out.

This interpetation immediately answers superposition and Schrodinger’s cat. The cat is possibly alive and simultaneously possibly dead” is not a contradiction. The same interpretation explains: which way information, null measurement, no fact of the matter between measurement, non locality, why actualization of one among N particles instantaneously alters the amplitudes of the others, and probably the delayed choice experiment. Stu Humanity in a Creative Universe OUP 2016.

Res potenta and Res extensa is not a substance dualism because potentia are not substances, so it does not inherit the Mind Body problem. In turn this suggests a role for mind: Mind actualizes potentia- ie collapses the wave function. Dean Radin and colleagues have data at 6.49 sigma that human mind can alter the outcome of the two slit experiment. So MIND can play a role in the becoming of thee universe.

Non locality is firmly establihshed. Therefore we have no firm apriori grounds to prefer locality - spacetime - as fundamental If we start with non locality as fundamental we must explain an emegence of spacetime. One try by me is: Quantum Gravity if Nonlocality is Fundamental, Entropy 2022. Any such theory requires some mapping from Hilbert space outside of spacetime to spacetime events. I propose one such mapping.

It is not obvious potentia are In spacetime. Suppose potentia are not in spacetime and are the quantum vacuum. Unconscious mind = the potentia of the quantum vacuum. Qulia are in spacetime, via actualization of potentia in MY Brain. Sudip and I have a paper on line, Human Cognition Surpasses the Tisirelson Bound: Is Mind In Spacetime? The data are still weak. My bet is that  mind = potentia is not in spacetime.

And Information = Possibles and choices among them.

Stu

> On Feb 28, 2024, at 2:55 AM, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch wrote:
> 
> Dear Gordana, Stu and Karl,
> 
> It is a matter of scientific fact that apart from this brief reference by Gordana, for which thanks, what I have written on the subject of potential and potentiality has been systematically ignored. May I please start this response  by giving the title of my 2017 article in arXiv Physics with R. Bishop:
>     
>     "Potentiality, Actuality and Non-Separability in Quantum and Classical Physics: Res Potentiae in the Macroscopic World".
> 
> I have suggested that information fits the schema defined in this paper and the science on which it is based. In addition, it offers the major advantage (in my mind) of being able to describe information and other complex human cognitive phenomena without going outside the laws of physics in the spacetime in which we normally evolve - the macroscopic world.  
> 
> The value for me of a non-transcendental explanation for thought and feeling is that requires the highest level of individual responsibility. I can not "pan off", to use an obsolescent trope, any of this responsibility to possible aspects of the universe of which I have no knowledge. When a radioactive nucleus emits a particle is outside the thermodynamic world of (non-standard) logic and responsibility.
> 
> I thus will insist, if I may, on the use of "probable" rather than "possible" in the debate. Possible is epistemic, and lets one off the hook. Probable is ontic and means real, even if low or small. Potential information is therefore for me something very concrete, present in or accompanying actual information, with a real probability that can be ascribed to its evolution.
> 
> I would much welcome comments on the above,
> 
> Best,
> Joseph
> 
> 
> De : gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se <mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
> Date : 27/02/2024 - 16:47 (E)
> À : michael.levin at allencenter.tufts.edu <mailto:michael.levin at allencenter.tufts.edu>
> Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Objet : Re: [Fis] [External] Re: "express matter and energy in terms of information"
> 
>  
> On 2024-02-27, 15:42, "Fis on behalf of Levin, Michael" <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of michael.levin at allencenter.tufts.edu <mailto:michael.levin at allencenter.tufts.edu> <mailto:michael.levin at allencenter.tufts.edu>> wrote:
>  
> > 'latent information' exists: waiting to be *discovered* … waiting to 
> be *invented* as new views,
>  
> this is a very important and interesting point.
>  
> Thanks, Mike and Marcus. 
> Indeed! We have been discussing the world as ”potential information” (in the sense of Aristotle’s potentiality) several times. In the sense of Informational structural realism (Floridi), also in exchanges with Joseph.
>  
> I have been working on a notion of this (Platonic?) space of potential inventions, ideas, 
> etc. as being under “positive pressure” in some sense - it is not 
> observed, but it *wants* to be observed, it's pushing outward. 
>  
> In the Aristotelian sense, potentiality is in the world.
>  
> In the Platonic sense, the material world that we perceive with our senses is not the real world but merely a shadow of the real world. The real world, for Plato, is a non-physical realm that consists of ideal forms or ideas. I think we can safely say that the Platonic ideal world is in our heads. 
>  
> So can we define a notion in which something is not directly observed (yet) but 
> does exert some kind of “influence” in the world before it is directly 
> embodied/perceived? Can Observers be influenced by things they haven’t 
> yet observed (but are putting themselves in a position to be able to 
> observe)? 
> Yes, in the Platonic sense of ideas in our heads, our ideas exert real-world influence as they guide our behavior.
>  
> Is it possible to formalize the idea of a subtle influence 
> from the denizens of the latent space - a kind of causality (akin to 
> that of synchronicity?) which is not normal physical causality but also 
> not nothing? 
> Currently, I am not aware of such a framework to express the contents of our heads. 
> But in principle, why not.
>  
> When can you trace a causal chain back to something that 
> *doesn’t* physically exist? do thoughts that haven’t been thought yet 
> contribute to the shape of an agent’s cognitive landscape? 
> Freud would say, surely.
>  
>  
> is that what cognitive agents are - transducers (bridges) from the latent space to 
> the physical space, which collapse or amplify potentialities from that 
> space into our world?
> They surely are. They are processing actual information on the level of language plus the potential information which can under certain conditions become actual for an agent.
>  
>  
> Thank you Marcus and Mike for this important point. By Maturana quote* I wanted to point out the importance of an observer for actual knowledge of the world that we are sharing.
> But there is a potential information both in the world and embodied in cognizing agents.
>  
> Mike
>  
> Gordana
>  
> * After the advent of ChatGPT Maturana’s quote is no longer valid. 
> There are utterances made by agents which are not observers.
>  
> ------ Original Message ------
> From "Marcus Abundis" <55mrcs at gmail.com <mailto:55mrcs at gmail.com> <mailto:55mrcs at gmail.com>>
> To "Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic" <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdu.se <mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdu.se> <mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdu.se>>
> Cc "fis" <fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
> Date 2/27/24, 9:17:09 AM
> Subject [External] Re: [Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of 
> information"
>  
>  
> >A nice synopsis Gordana, thanks!
> >  
> >I would add (predictably) not ALL information is observed. For example, 
> >'latent information' exists: waiting to be *discovered* in our many 
> >'logical gaps', or waiting to be *invented* as new views, devices, and 
> >tools by humanity's very-few skilled individuals. Only when Truly 
> >Perfect Knowledge of the cosmos is achieved (if ever possible) can we 
> >say all information is observed.
> >  
> >Marcus
> >  
> >Caution: This message originated from outside of the Tufts University 
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> >or call them directly at 617-627-3376.
> >  
>  
>  
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[Fis] [External] Re: &quot; express matter and energy in terms of information&quot;

[Fis] [External] Re: " express matter and energy in terms of information"