[Fis] Fwd: Re: [External] Re: " express matter and energy in terms of information"

Wed Feb 28 10:55:06 CET 2024

Dear Gordana, Stu and Karl,
It is a matter of scientific fact that apart from this brief reference by Gordana, for which thanks, what I have written on the subject of potential and potentiality has been systematically ignored. May I please start this response  by giving the title of my 2017 article in arXiv Physics with R. Bishop:

    "Potentiality, Actuality and Non-Separability in Quantum and Classical Physics: Res Potentiae in the Macroscopic World".
I have suggested that information fits the schema defined in this paper and the science on which it is based. In addition, it offers the major advantage (in my mind) of being able to describe information and other complex human cognitive phenomena without going outside the laws of physics in the spacetime in which we normally evolve - the macroscopic world.  
The value for me of a non-transcendental explanation for thought and feeling is that requires the highest level of individual responsibility. I can not "pan off", to use an obsolescent trope, any of this responsibility to possible aspects of the universe of which I have no knowledge. When a radioactive nucleus emits a particle is outside the thermodynamic world of (non-standard) logic and responsibility.
I thus will insist, if I may, on the use of "probable" rather than "possible" in the debate. Possible is epistemic, and lets one off the hook. Probable is ontic and means real, even if low or small. Potential information is therefore for me something very concrete, present in or accompanying actual information, with a real probability that can be ascribed to its evolution.
I would much welcome comments on the above,
Best,
Joseph
De : gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se
Date : 27/02/2024 - 16:47 (E)
À : michael.levin at allencenter.tufts.edu
Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es
Objet : Re: [Fis] [External] Re: "express matter and energy in terms of information"
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On 2024-02-27, 15:42, "Fis on behalf of Levin, Michael" <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of michael.levin at allencenter.tufts.edu <mailto:michael.levin at allencenter.tufts.edu>> wrote:

> 'latent information' exists: waiting to be *discovered* … waiting to 

be *invented* as new views,

this is a very important and interesting point.

Thanks, Mike and Marcus. 

Indeed! We have been discussing the world as ”potential information” (in the sense of Aristotle’s potentiality) several times. In the sense of Informational structural realism (Floridi), also in exchanges with Joseph.

I have been working on a notion of this (Platonic?) space of potential inventions, ideas, 

etc. as being under “positive pressure” in some sense - it is not 

observed, but it *wants* to be observed, it's pushing outward. 

In the Aristotelian sense, potentiality is in the world.

In the Platonic sense, the material world that we perceive with our senses is not the real world but merely a shadow of the real world. The real world, for Plato, is a non-physical realm that consists of ideal forms or ideas. I think we can safely say that the Platonic ideal world is in our heads. 

So can we define a notion in which something is not directly observed (yet) but 

does exert some kind of “influence” in the world before it is directly 

embodied/perceived? Can Observers be influenced by things they haven’t 

yet observed (but are putting themselves in a position to be able to 

observe)? 

Yes, in the Platonic sense of ideas in our heads, our ideas exert real-world influence as they guide our behavior.

Is it possible to formalize the idea of a subtle influence 

from the denizens of the latent space - a kind of causality (akin to 

that of synchronicity?) which is not normal physical causality but also 

not nothing? 

Currently, I am not aware of such a framework to express the contents of our heads. 
 But in principle, why not.

When can you trace a causal chain back to something that 

*doesn’t* physically exist? do thoughts that haven’t been thought yet 

contribute to the shape of an agent’s cognitive landscape? 

Freud would say, surely.

is that what cognitive agents are - transducers (bridges) from the latent space to 

the physical space, which collapse or amplify potentialities from that 

space into our world?

They surely are. They are processing actual information on the level of language plus the potential information which can under certain conditions become actual for an agent.

Thank you Marcus and Mike for this important point. By Maturana quote* I wanted to point out the importance of an observer for actual knowledge of the world that we are sharing.

But there is a potential information both in the world and embodied in cognizing agents.

Mike

Gordana

* After the advent of ChatGPT Maturana’s quote is no longer valid. 
 There are utterances made by agents which are not observers.

------ Original Message ------

>From "Marcus Abundis" <55mrcs at gmail.com <mailto:55mrcs at gmail.com>>

To "Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic" <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdu.se <mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdu.se>>

Cc "fis" <fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>

Date 2/27/24, 9:17:09 AM

Subject [External] Re: [Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of 

information"

>A nice synopsis Gordana, thanks!

>

>I would add (predictably) not ALL information is observed. For example, 

>'latent information' exists: waiting to be *discovered* in our many 

>'logical gaps', or waiting to be *invented* as new views, devices, and 

>tools by humanity's very-few skilled individuals. Only when Truly 

>Perfect Knowledge of the cosmos is achieved (if ever possible) can we 

>say all information is observed.

>

>Marcus

>

>Caution: This message originated from outside of the Tufts University 

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>or call them directly at 617-627-3376.

>

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[Fis] Fwd: Re: [External] Re: &quot; express matter and energy in terms of information&quot;

[Fis] Fwd: Re: [External] Re: " express matter and energy in terms of information"