[Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of information"--Digital Cheese

Thu Feb 15 18:04:05 CET 2024

I agree that digitization would be difficult or impossible here. But if 
future scanners could copy quantum states, like quantum computers then 
we could get a duplicate of the cheese without the digitization 
(encoding) process. That is when we would be dealing with Aristotelian 
information - an immanent feature of matter (form of energy).

I attached a pdf of the mentioned article:   "Erroneous concepts of 
prominent scientists: C.F. Weizsäcker,  J. A. Wheeler, S. Wolfram, S. 
Lloyd, J. Schmidhuber, and M. Vopson, resulting from misunderstanding of 
information and complexity"

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/file/d/1grCvR5R-JJfv9v1ecpBHRalhS0aX94_4/view?usp=drive_link__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QY-yWw45S08p-qz1wVhylKrDKn713onnyUOvqB2H9OhcTsvyA-Oecnma-zHUeMsW--sS_pnoF8uOjxNszd-kzxFLzF8i$ 

Best regards
  Mariusz

W dniu 15.02.2024 o 13:24, Pedro C. Marijuán pisze:
> Dear Mariusz & FIS Colleagues,
>
> Thanks for your reply. Please, send me your paper, it looks quite 
> interesting.
>
> I was thinking on a digital variation of the info cheese. It reminds 
> what Stuart posted weeks ago about digitalizing the info of a painting.
> Let us imagine a (future) powerful sort of scanner-mass-spectrogram, 
> so that it could digitalize the position of all molecules (momenta 
> needed too?) in a portion of the cheese.
> We would get a hipermatrix of say 50,000 different molecules (assuming 
> most microrganisms are dead and somehow dissolved/incorporated), most 
> of them situated in billions or trillions of different positions.
> Could the hypermassive data be sent to a molecular 3-D printer and 
> rematerialize the cheese? Therefore, would we have completely 
> digitalized the cheese, putting it "in terms of information"?
>
> I don't think so, for "interpretive" reasons not difficult to follow. 
> Partially they would apply to Stuart's painting case too (although 
> color codes are more tricky to discuss than the codes needed for 
> heterogeneous molecular populations).
>
> And just to close, formal systems share the enormous advantage of 
> computer's Moore Law, but cannot capture the "jury rigging" of life 
> --or in my own parlance, the information games that life cycles 
> orchestrate regarding their collectively-unending adaptation processes.
>
> Best--Pedro
>
> El 14/02/2024 a las 10:51, Mariusz Stanowski escribió:
>>
>> Dear Pedro,
>>
>> I find your elaboration of Krassimir's question very aptly pointing 
>> out the difficulty of getting to the essence of things and 
>> understanding the objects themselves in an increasingly complex world 
>> of human concepts/information. The more of this information we have 
>> to deal with, the more and more difficult it is for us to distinguish 
>> between the more and the less relevant, being further and further 
>> meta-reflections of that object. It is also increasingly difficult to 
>> find common features for all this information, that is, information 
>> that succinctly define the object. Therefore, I believe that if we 
>> want to understand something we should focus on the fundamental 
>> information, i.e. the set of the smallest number of concepts 
>> sufficient to distinguish/define the object.
>> This is the principle I tried to follow in the just published article 
>> that defines information and complexity at the fundamental level.
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01655515231203644*core-collateral-purchase-access__;Iw!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QY-yWw45S08p-qz1wVhylKrDKn713onnyUOvqB2H9OhcTsvyA-Oecnma-zHUeMsW--sS_pnoF8uOjxNszd-kzxYSWlm2$ 
>> Information is understood here either as an Aristotelian form or form 
>> of energy (it is worth noting that information is a generalization of 
>> the concept of form-shape to all other characteristics of objects), 
>> or technically (Shannon) as an element of a collection. Complexity, 
>> on the other hand, is here the equivalent of information compression 
>> (in the broadest sense).
>> The article was intentionally written in a somewhat provocative form 
>> to draw attention to the misconceptions arising from a lack of 
>> understanding of these key concepts, even among well-known 
>> authorities. An example of this is Shannon's universal attribution of 
>> natural/physical properties to information on the basis of similarity 
>> to thermodynamics where we deal only with collections of gas 
>> particles, while other physical objects/processes are not collections 
>> but complex structures and systems.
>> I can send PDF of the paper if you are interested.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Mariusz
>>
>> W dniu 13.02.2024 o 18:52, Pedro C. Marijuán pisze:
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> This was great from Krassimir:
>>> "Please give at least one example, for instance, to express the 
>>> cheese in terms of information."
>>>
>>> I was reminded of a famous essay I read in the 80s (or 90s) about 
>>> "what's in a cent?" (or maybe a "penny"?). It was a one or two pages 
>>> essay on the enormous web of occurrences related to a "simple" 
>>> object such as a penny. I could not locate it any more --does anyone 
>>> know about it?
>>>
>>> Well, the cheese. The sheer diversity of cheeses. The different 
>>> flavor, fragance, taste, texture, appearance... as estimated by our 
>>> senses, are some of these related to "terms of information"?
>>> And let's go to the milk fermentation by yeasts, bacteria, fungi... 
>>> See 
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-behind-your-cheese-180981199/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QY-yWw45S08p-qz1wVhylKrDKn713onnyUOvqB2H9OhcTsvyA-Oecnma-zHUeMsW--sS_pnoF8uOjxNszd-kz6vlwS3Z$ 
>>> What are the molecular transporters, enzymes, signaling systems 
>>> involved? What are the main "molecular recognition" events? Again: 
>>> are some of these related to "terms of information"?
>>> And what about the lives of those involved in the "making of"? And 
>>> of the patient "donor" animals? And the engineering and the whole 
>>> organization of the production process?
>>> And let's go to the marketing, web sales, use of influencers, social 
>>> networks, etc. And fundamentally, when we go to a market all the 
>>> other stories will disappear and will get subsumed into a "price" 
>>> that signals the value of the product--into a collective information 
>>> processing that recalibrates itself at high speed. That famous Adam 
>>> Smith "invisible hand".
>>>
>>> Therefore, the initial question taken literally becomes rather 
>>> absurd, fundamentalist--it is the same as if we ask for the 
>>> "physics" of the cheese or for its "chemistry". But curiously, in 
>>> this case the information-related aspects get an upper hand. The 
>>> fact is that socially we have to handle a big, very big system of 
>>> the sciences, and we are forced to combine, recombine their 
>>> specialized disciplinary views etc. etc. It is in this bigger 
>>> multidisciplinary context where the "physicalist" dominance in 
>>> intelligence & information studies was discussed by Yixin-Zhong a 
>>> few months ago... quite opportune.
>>>
>>> Best--Pedro
>>>
>>>
>>> El 12/02/2024 a las 22:38, Krassimir Markov escribió:
>>>> Dear Carlos,
>>>> You wrote "... express matter and energy in terms of information".
>>>>
>>>> Simple question:
>>>>
>>>> How can it be done?
>>>>
>>>> Please give at least one example, for instance, to express the 
>>>> cheese in terms of information.
>>>>
>>>> With respect,
>>>> Krassimir
>>>>
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>
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