[Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of information"--Digital Cheese

Thu Feb 15 13:24:38 CET 2024

Dear Mariusz & FIS Colleagues,

Thanks for your reply. Please, send me your paper, it looks quite 
interesting.

I was thinking on a digital variation of the info cheese. It reminds 
what Stuart posted weeks ago about digitalizing the info of a painting.
Let us imagine a (future) powerful sort of scanner-mass-spectrogram, so 
that it could digitalize the position of all molecules (momenta needed 
too?) in a portion of the cheese.
We would get a hipermatrix of say 50,000 different molecules (assuming 
most microrganisms are dead and somehow dissolved/incorporated), most of 
them situated in billions or trillions of different positions.
Could the hypermassive data be sent to a molecular 3-D printer and 
rematerialize the cheese? Therefore, would we have completely 
digitalized the cheese, putting it "in terms of information"?

I don't think so, for "interpretive" reasons not difficult to follow. 
Partially they would apply to Stuart's painting case too (although color 
codes are more tricky to discuss than the codes needed for heterogeneous 
molecular populations).

And just to close, formal systems share the enormous advantage of 
computer's Moore Law, but cannot capture the "jury rigging" of life --or 
in my own parlance, the information games that life cycles orchestrate 
regarding their collectively-unending adaptation processes.

Best--Pedro

El 14/02/2024 a las 10:51, Mariusz Stanowski escribió:
>
> Dear Pedro,
>
> I find your elaboration of Krassimir's question very aptly pointing 
> out the difficulty of getting to the essence of things and 
> understanding the objects themselves in an increasingly complex world 
> of human concepts/information. The more of this information we have to 
> deal with, the more and more difficult it is for us to distinguish 
> between the more and the less relevant, being further and further 
> meta-reflections of that object. It is also increasingly difficult to 
> find common features for all this information, that is, information 
> that succinctly define the object. Therefore, I believe that if we 
> want to understand something we should focus on the fundamental 
> information, i.e. the set of the smallest number of concepts 
> sufficient to distinguish/define the object.
> This is the principle I tried to follow in the just published article 
> that defines information and complexity at the fundamental level.
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01655515231203644*core-collateral-purchase-access__;Iw!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SFx9bOOREg77h688ZvIx33wmgxOufPxYMJXVch6FBvssrS1RTyy-SSfJqiEVgNXQqfsyHZ4wVGXmZwkwd-xbNoT-QioC$ 
> Information is understood here either as an Aristotelian form or form 
> of energy (it is worth noting that information is a generalization of 
> the concept of form-shape to all other characteristics of objects), or 
> technically (Shannon) as an element of a collection. Complexity, on 
> the other hand, is here the equivalent of information compression (in 
> the broadest sense).
> The article was intentionally written in a somewhat provocative form 
> to draw attention to the misconceptions arising from a lack of 
> understanding of these key concepts, even among well-known 
> authorities. An example of this is Shannon's universal attribution of 
> natural/physical properties to information on the basis of similarity 
> to thermodynamics where we deal only with collections of gas 
> particles, while other physical objects/processes are not collections 
> but complex structures and systems.
> I can send PDF of the paper if you are interested.
>
> Best regards
> Mariusz
>
> W dniu 13.02.2024 o 18:52, Pedro C. Marijuán pisze:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> This was great from Krassimir:
>> "Please give at least one example, for instance, to express the 
>> cheese in terms of information."
>>
>> I was reminded of a famous essay I read in the 80s (or 90s) about 
>> "what's in a cent?" (or maybe a "penny"?). It was a one or two pages 
>> essay on the enormous web of occurrences related to a "simple" object 
>> such as a penny. I could not locate it any more --does anyone know 
>> about it?
>>
>> Well, the cheese. The sheer diversity of cheeses. The different 
>> flavor, fragance, taste, texture, appearance... as estimated by our 
>> senses, are some of these related to "terms of information"?
>> And let's go to the milk fermentation by yeasts, bacteria, fungi... 
>> See 
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-behind-your-cheese-180981199/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SFx9bOOREg77h688ZvIx33wmgxOufPxYMJXVch6FBvssrS1RTyy-SSfJqiEVgNXQqfsyHZ4wVGXmZwkwd-xbNpwnycQ_$ 
>> What are the molecular transporters, enzymes, signaling systems 
>> involved? What are the main "molecular recognition" events? Again: 
>> are some of these related to "terms of information"?
>> And what about the lives of those involved in the "making of"? And of 
>> the patient "donor" animals? And the engineering and the whole 
>> organization of the production process?
>> And let's go to the marketing, web sales, use of influencers, social 
>> networks, etc. And fundamentally, when we go to a market all the 
>> other stories will disappear and will get subsumed into a "price" 
>> that signals the value of the product--into a collective information 
>> processing that recalibrates itself at high speed. That famous Adam 
>> Smith "invisible hand".
>>
>> Therefore, the initial question taken literally becomes rather 
>> absurd, fundamentalist--it is the same as if we ask for the "physics" 
>> of the cheese or for its "chemistry". But curiously, in this case the 
>> information-related aspects get an upper hand. The fact is that 
>> socially we have to handle a big, very big system of the sciences, 
>> and we are forced to combine, recombine their specialized 
>> disciplinary views etc. etc. It is in this bigger multidisciplinary 
>> context where the "physicalist" dominance in intelligence & 
>> information studies was discussed by Yixin-Zhong a few months ago... 
>> quite opportune.
>>
>> Best--Pedro
>>
>>
>> El 12/02/2024 a las 22:38, Krassimir Markov escribió:
>>> Dear Carlos,
>>> You wrote "... express matter and energy in terms of information".
>>>
>>> Simple question:
>>>
>>> How can it be done?
>>>
>>> Please give at least one example, for instance, to express the 
>>> cheese in terms of information.
>>>
>>> With respect,
>>> Krassimir
>>>
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