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<p>I agree that digitization would be difficult or impossible here.
But if future scanners could copy quantum states, like quantum
computers then we could get a duplicate of the cheese without the
digitization (encoding) process. That is when we would be dealing
with Aristotelian information - an immanent feature of matter
(form of energy).</p>
<p>I attached a pdf of the mentioned article: "Erroneous concepts
of prominent scientists: C.F. Weizsäcker, J. A. Wheeler, S.
Wolfram, S. Lloyd, J. Schmidhuber, and M. Vopson, resulting from
misunderstanding of information and complexity"</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://drive.google.com/file/d/1grCvR5R-JJfv9v1ecpBHRalhS0aX94_4/view?usp=drive_link__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QY-yWw45S08p-qz1wVhylKrDKn713onnyUOvqB2H9OhcTsvyA-Oecnma-zHUeMsW--sS_pnoF8uOjxNszd-kzxFLzF8i$">https://drive.google.com/file/d/1grCvR5R-JJfv9v1ecpBHRalhS0aX94_4/view?usp=drive_link</a></p>
<p>Best regards<br>
Mariusz</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 15.02.2024 o 13:24, Pedro C.
Marijuán pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:c44a8580-3a78-b75f-0898-918a86198623@gmail.com">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Mariusz & FIS Colleagues,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks for your reply. Please, send
me your paper, it looks quite interesting. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I was thinking on a digital variation
of the info cheese. It reminds what Stuart posted weeks ago
about digitalizing the info of a painting. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Let us imagine a (future) powerful
sort of scanner-mass-spectrogram, so that it could digitalize
the position of all molecules (momenta needed too?) in a portion
of the cheese. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">We would get a hipermatrix of say
50,000 different molecules (assuming most microrganisms are dead
and somehow dissolved/incorporated), most of them situated in
billions or trillions of different positions. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Could the hypermassive data be sent
to a molecular 3-D printer and rematerialize the cheese?
Therefore, would we have completely digitalized the cheese,
putting it "in terms of information"? <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I don't think so, for "interpretive"
reasons not difficult to follow. Partially they would apply to
Stuart's painting case too (although color codes are more tricky
to discuss than the codes needed for heterogeneous molecular
populations).</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">And just to close, formal systems
share the enormous advantage of computer's Moore Law, but cannot
capture the "jury rigging" of life --or in my own parlance, the
information games that life cycles orchestrate regarding their
collectively-unending adaptation processes.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 14/02/2024 a las 10:51, Mariusz
Stanowski escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:40552a26-0cb0-4c5e-82d9-91497b6e5881@wp.pl">
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<p>Dear Pedro,</p>
<p>I find your elaboration of Krassimir's question very aptly
pointing out the difficulty of getting to the essence of
things and understanding the objects themselves in an
increasingly complex world of human concepts/information. The
more of this information we have to deal with, the more and
more difficult it is for us to distinguish between the more
and the less relevant, being further and further
meta-reflections of that object. It is also increasingly
difficult to find common features for all this information,
that is, information that succinctly define the object.
Therefore, I believe that if we want to understand something
we should focus on the fundamental information, i.e. the set
of the smallest number of concepts sufficient to
distinguish/define the object. <br>
This is the principle I tried to follow in the just published
article that defines information and complexity at the
fundamental level.<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01655515231203644*core-collateral-purchase-access__;Iw!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T32AiE6UmQl-7n70JaaD2Z8MkqW19WQsVpbwk065JHpDk-lBrAiFGUO1bbWk5PVAYYGnnhnXoVC70zzLMwlGJJWPuR6f$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/01655515231203644#core-collateral-purchase-access</a><br>
Information is understood here either as an Aristotelian form
or form of energy (it is worth noting that information is a
generalization of the concept of form-shape to all other
characteristics of objects), or technically (Shannon) as an
element of a collection. Complexity, on the other hand, is
here the equivalent of information compression (in the
broadest sense).<br>
The article was intentionally written in a somewhat
provocative form to draw attention to the misconceptions
arising from a lack of understanding of these key concepts,
even among well-known authorities. An example of this is
Shannon's universal attribution of natural/physical properties
to information on the basis of similarity to thermodynamics
where we deal only with collections of gas particles, while
other physical objects/processes are not collections but
complex structures and systems.<br>
I can send PDF of the paper if you are interested.</p>
<p>Best regards<br>
Mariusz<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">W dniu 13.02.2024 o 18:52, Pedro C.
Marijuán pisze:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6899f157-9c35-1f94-6d7c-003f79559b16@gmail.com">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear All,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">This was great from Krassimir:
<div>"Please give at least one example, for instance, to
express the cheese in terms of information."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I was reminded of a famous essay I read in the 80s (or
90s) about "what's in a cent?" (or maybe a "penny"?). It
was a one or two pages essay on the enormous web of
occurrences related to a "simple" object such as a penny.
I could not locate it any more --does anyone know about
it?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well, the cheese. The sheer diversity of cheeses. The
different flavor, fragance, taste, texture, appearance...
as estimated by our senses, are some of these related to
"terms of information"?</div>
<div>And let's go to the milk fermentation by yeasts,
bacteria, fungi... See <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-behind-your-cheese-180981199/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RZmBAGuqcc3WPSJ1gwPwe6Rfxa-lmx4SL77c4fRq2SuTNCAAIa_SmSVmJ8ohHfdmp1ED3LhKSC41zIBn9OYQjiPEOgPs$"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-behind-your-cheese-180981199/</a></div>
<div>What are the molecular transporters, enzymes, signaling
systems involved? What are the main "molecular
recognition" events? Again: are some of these related to
"terms of information"?</div>
<div>And what about the lives of those involved in the
"making of"? And of the patient "donor" animals? And the
engineering and the whole organization of the production
process?</div>
<div>And let's go to the marketing, web sales, use of
influencers, social networks, etc. And fundamentally, when
we go to a market all the other stories will disappear and
will get subsumed into a "price" that signals the value of
the product--into a collective information processing that
recalibrates itself at high speed. That famous Adam Smith
"invisible hand".<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Therefore, the initial question taken literally becomes
rather absurd, fundamentalist--it is the same as if we ask
for the "physics" of the cheese or for its "chemistry".
But curiously, in this case the information-related
aspects get an upper hand. The fact is that socially we
have to handle a big, very big system of the sciences, and
we are forced to combine, recombine their specialized
disciplinary views etc. etc. It is in this bigger
multidisciplinary context where the "physicalist"
dominance in intelligence & information studies was
discussed by Yixin-Zhong a few months ago... quite
opportune.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
El 12/02/2024 a las 22:38, Krassimir Markov escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKEQgkx-zV3nKKRUU1GMr_LsV8=03QJ74YqSbsP5eEdaW+vc2g@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">Dear Carlos,
<div>You wrote "... express matter and energy in terms of
information".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Simple question:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>How can it be done?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please give at least one example, for instance, to
express the cheese in terms of information.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With respect,</div>
<div>Krassimir</div>
</div>
<br>
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