[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 105, Issue 4

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Pedro, Yixin and Eric,
Thank you for your ideas.
I follow the discussions in FIS with interest.
The diversity of ideas is inspiring and stimulating.
It is very important for me to know your understanding of "intelligence",
"social intelligence", "social information".
Please, if possible, give your definitions of these terms.
I think it is important to discuss later separately the concepts of
"artificial intelligence" and "artificial social intelligence", since there
are different aspects and points of view to the emergence, goals and
development of these scientific fields.
With respect,
Krassimir

На пт, 13.10.2023 г. в 15:48 ч. <fis-request at listas.unizar.es> написа:

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>    1. FIS Discussion Session on AI (Pedro C. Mariju?n)
>    2. Re: FIS Discussion Session on AI (Karl Javorszky)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Pedro C. Marijuán" <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
> To: "'fis'" <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 13:10:29 +0200
> Subject: [Fis] FIS Discussion Session on AI
> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>
> Many thanks to Yixin and Eric for their contributions. Both represent
> interesting (partial) approaches to the brave new world that AI and related
> technologies are in the process of enacting.
> I had the opportunity to briefly discuss with Yixin on the AI Paradigm. My
> basic point of view is that we all are still ignoring the general nature of
> intelligence.
> There is a biological root (exactly, cellular) that very few people
> consider and try to connect with neuronal or social manifestations of
> intelligence.
> Failing to see the way the living cell strategically organizes its
> processing resources to enact a life cycle, means leaving in the pure air
> the crucial use of our own informational resources to, yes, advance our own
> lives.
>
> Eric's contribution is an step on that direction, but within the formal
> approaches to info/meaning/knowledge. Insufficient thus.
> The problem is that we as individuals disappear from the
> scientific-technological landscape --only left for datafication, for
> control.
> The human life cycle's global intelligence is mainly handled via (mostly
> social) emotions, also an ill-defined, ill-understood territory in
> science...
> That our social emotions are completely misunderstood and mishandled at
> the social level is horribly seen these days/months/years...
>
> I disagree with the critical, negativist approaches to AI, which I think
> has a great merit and transformative possibilities --- if, and only if, it
> is accompanied by a deep scientific change.
> Call it new paradigm, social information or whatever. I see more alive
> than ever the original goals of this list 25 years ago: Foundations of
> Information Science!
>
> Best wishes to all,
> Pedro
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> FIS Coordination
> *FIS Archives last 10 years:*
> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/
> *List of discussion sessions last 25 years:*
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> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
> To: "Pedro C. Marijuán" <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
> Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2023 14:46:42 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS Discussion Session on AI
>
> Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,
>
>
>
> Thank you for reopening our long discussion, and with such high-quality
> position statements as we have read from respected researchers *Yixin
> Zhong*.and *Eric Werner*.
>
> Eric Werner uses an approach to a system of interacting entities which is
> rooted in empirical research. We are invited to share and cooperatively
> develop a concept that describes the functioning of intelligence as a
> process of information management. Nature is performing the trick,
> therefore, so I understand Eric, we should be able to translate the
> interaction patterns in symbolic denotation.
>
> Yixin Zhong presents us with a formal treatise. In it, almost in the form
> of a check-list, requirements are elaborated which give form and
> delineation to an explanatory system which shows us the mechanism of
> Artificial Intelligence to be subject to rational rules.
>
>
>
> The formal approach invites one to go through each paragraph and state
> agreement and provide details. Such a work would be too tiresome and
> lengthy, and would go too much in detail for the present phase of this
> session’s discussion.
>
>
>
> Please allow me to present a viewpoint which could appear to some as a
> gate-crashing, introducing a third variation on a theme, without being
> invited to do so. The synthesis which now follows should better be
> understood as a 3rd movement of a music which rephrases and integrates
> the themata of the previous two movements.
>
> The *paradigm shift* comes from a new understanding of the basic rules of
> Nature. There is a precedent to its main thesis, Pythagoras. According to
> the Pythagorean perspective of the world, there exists an inner harmony in
> Nature, which is potentially recognizable. The main entrance into an
> edifice of understanding Nature is given to us by means of the numbers.
>
>
>
> This is in fact so. Eric refers to Wittgenstein and language logic as
> cornerstones of his argumentation. Advances in technology have permitted us
> to expand and partly rewrite Wittgenstein’s work. A falling apple and paper
> and pencil were sufficient to establish rules that govern inanimate
> objects. One needs a computer to decipher the rules that govern Nature in
> biologic contexts.
>
> The problem is not that there would be no rational doors and windows into
> the mysteries of intelligence, artificial or not. The first problem is,
> that the voice of reason speaks in a whisper. The real impediment opposing
> reason is that the voice insinuates *unthinkable, unconventional,
> unheard-of *contents, which do not appear to have a context.
>
> The situation is today similar to that which greeted Gregor Mendel. Having
> found a pattern (of hereditary traits, in his case), having tried to alert
> the scientific establishment to the importance of the pattern was not
> igniting a heap of highly charged attention, groundbreaking interest,
> because the questions were not arranged such that their interrelation (by
> means of that pattern Mendel was trying to sell) could have reached a
> critical mass of curiosity and intellectual challenge.
>
> Today, the green and yellow peas are not laboriously planted in the garden
> of the abbey. They are instead named *a,b *and are entries in a cell in a
> database.
>
> The patterns that yellow and green *a,b *produce once one gives them an
> experimental workover, are more than fascinating. They are fundamental.
>
>
>
> The convoluted interrelations among symbols that describe the concepts and
> appearances of the mental construct ‘information, intelligence,
> alternatives’ etc. can easily be read off the natural numbers, if one uses
> them as *pairs (a,b) *which are individuals. We use simple sorting and
> ordering operations to produce interrelated chains of occurrences, which is
> what we actually look for when discussing information, intelligence,
> alternatives, choices, predictability and so forth.
>
> There exists a numbering-counting system that works on assemblies of
> symbols that are in their entirety a Whole. The Whole as a unit includes
> the concept of something like the strength of belonging together. This
> fundamental property of the symbols system, that its members indeed do have
> some external (objectively existing) relationships among each other, the
> discovery of numerical extents of this collagen-like natural ‘force’, is a
> great revindication of Pythagoras (and of animistic religions). The sober
> S&T (Science and Technology) facts are easy to reproduce on one’s own
> computer. The key to the measure of consistency lies in a small detail of
> the procedure of resorting objects, namely that the individual objects team
> up into linear sequences, which are called *cycles, *in the course of a
> reorder. We credit each individual with a proportionate amount of the
> resources of the cycles the element is a member of. The cycle as such is
> both the abstract summation over all its members, and also the individual
> extents that remain a property of each element. We suggest the name of *liaison
> *for a collection of data referring to the extents of the *liens *elements
> are bonded with each other due to being members of one specific cycle
> during one specific reorder. The numeric property of *alliances *among
> members in a situation of indecision, whether reorder A ↔ B or rather C ↔ D
> is currently taking place, gives a market-value depth to the calculations
> conducted using the traditional methods.
>
>
>
> The patterns are here and claim recognition. This is what Mendel kept
> saying. Once *Yixin Zhong*.and *Eric Werner* familiarize themselves with
> calculating alliance weights and factors, they will find a grandiosely
> simple but very potent and versatile tool for their further research. The
> paradigm change is to look at the back side of the elementary Sumerian
> units, and discover that there are distinguishing symbols etched there,
> which can be read if one uses *two *of the elements together. An element
> with properties *(a,b) *will be on position *k1 *when sorted on *[**α,**β]
> *and will be on position *k2 *when sorted on *[**γ,**δ]. *How does it get
> from here to there? How much lien bonds the element to its allies
> (‘co-cyclists’, members of the same cycle)?
>
>
>
> In the hope to have contributed to the subject of the present session,
>
> Thanks again for the well-written and convincing papers,
>
> Karl
>
> Am Fr., 13. Okt. 2023 um 13:11 Uhr schrieb Pedro C. Marijuán <
> pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>:
>
>> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>>
>> Many thanks to Yixin and Eric for their contributions. Both represent
>> interesting (partial) approaches to the brave new world that AI and related
>> technologies are in the process of enacting.
>> I had the opportunity to briefly discuss with Yixin on the AI Paradigm.
>> My basic point of view is that we all are still ignoring the general nature
>> of intelligence.
>> There is a biological root (exactly, cellular) that very few people
>> consider and try to connect with neuronal or social manifestations of
>> intelligence.
>> Failing to see the way the living cell strategically organizes its
>> processing resources to enact a life cycle, means leaving in the pure air
>> the crucial use of our own informational resources to, yes, advance our own
>> lives.
>>
>> Eric's contribution is an step on that direction, but within the formal
>> approaches to info/meaning/knowledge. Insufficient thus.
>> The problem is that we as individuals disappear from the
>> scientific-technological landscape --only left for datafication, for
>> control.
>> The human life cycle's global intelligence is mainly handled via (mostly
>> social) emotions, also an ill-defined, ill-understood territory in
>> science...
>> That our social emotions are completely misunderstood and mishandled at
>> the social level is horribly seen these days/months/years...
>>
>> I disagree with the critical, negativist approaches to AI, which I think
>> has a great merit and transformative possibilities --- if, and only if, it
>> is accompanied by a deep scientific change.
>> Call it new paradigm, social information or whatever. I see more alive
>> than ever the original goals of this list 25 years ago: Foundations of
>> Information Science!
>>
>> Best wishes to all,
>> Pedro
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> FIS Coordination
>> *FIS Archives last 10 years:*
>> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/
>> *List of discussion sessions last 25 years:*
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RBY-UgxvthDt8XFekwpKnS9ohZU5ndVi0V9yv6hpWTTa-T5CAq3-zrDk0DooMmJ9PqV1tL99t_ABM2H1cqY$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T36sXrYk4lzPAQiTwHKyZNbaNNeoqQbLIdxVoB7FbVSiGQA22R-YQANJqj4RWnlhFQdWizx9ll8ji60lmqpNQG75q79v$>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
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