[Fis] emotions

Karl Javorszky karl.javorszky at gmail.com
Fri Mar 3 10:30:12 CET 2023

Dear Konstantin et al,

Congratulations on your work on emotions and how they relate to the
succession of time. Specifically, I applaud your conceptualization of an

*I use the following definition of information: information is a structural
aspect of the existence of matter. At the present stage of the study of
matter, we know three aspects of its existence. The property of matter to
be stable reflects the mass (substance). The property of matter to change
reflects energy. The property of matter to have a structure reflects
information. These three aspects can merge into each other, but the
transition coefficients are very large. The transition of mass into energy
has a coefficient of "the speed of light squared". The transition of energy
into information has a coefficient of "one divided by the Boltzmann
constant". Therefore, mutual transitions "mass - energy - information" are
important only in some cases when energy or information is present in large
quantities and with a high flow density.*

*The concept of "human personality" does not have the same specific
definition. I use the following definition: a human personality is a
complex of connections both inside the psyche of a given individual and
outside it, that is, a complex of intrapsychic and social connections that
form a unique structure of an individual.*

*Of course, an estimate of the amount of information contained in a human
personality can only be approximate.*

You are contrasting emotions as a momentary state against emotions as
something that changes. In this respect, your contribution connects to one
a young lady had offered us a few months ago. She pointed out the
sequential order as being a constitutive factor in the interplay we know as
life. You deal with that aspect’s background: the momentary state.

The two concepts: what is now (the emotions) and what is in the process of
change (the flow of {time, energy, regulation, entropy, information, etc.})
are intimately connected. That what is contemporaneous is the background to
that what is sequenced, and vice versa.

Your words to describe the interdependence (stability, changeability,
structure) are as good as any three to utter while pointing to diverse
distinct main aspects of a mental picture. The important thing is that all
agree to what you point your index finger at, while saying: this is
stability, and what you point at while you say: this is changeability, and
which aspect you point out while you say: this is what I mean when I say

May this person offer you a technical drawing, zoomable and scalable, which
depicts logical symbols while these perform acts of realizations of being
interconnected. The system of interconnections between stability,
changeability and structure can be easily demonstrated on the results of a
conjugation/declination of the logical sentence *a+b=c *in all its forms.

*Where *something is, is determined by the *qualities *of the something
relative to its peers in an *order context. *These three words describe the
same interconnection you talk about using three different words.

Howard’s remark:

*i suspect that emotions are our fastest form of information processing. in
other words, they have a wisdom of their own.*

reflects on the fact that we use two different syntaxes to describe linear
and planar positions and qualitative/structural properties. The former uses
the sequential readings of assemblies of symbols, while the latter reads
out similarity properties by grouping the symbols. Groups, like emotions,
are contemporaneous; the members of a group share a commutative symbol. We
recognize similar symbols, which are members of the same group, against a
background of diversities, created by all the other groups. Distances are
using a background of similarities, by using identical units to point out
the differences/diversities among the symbols.

Howard’s ‘wisdom of their own’ presumably refers to the grammatical rules
that govern, which groups are possible (admissible, realizable,
grammatical, true, etc.), among the groups that can coexist (emotions,
commutative readings of symbols of assemblies). (Examples: apathy is not
dysphoria; pH values have to remain within limits, etc.)

There are *two sets of *‘wisdom of their own’ that are to be obeyed when
reading off symbols from assemblies. The two sets of rules interact, and
human neurology uses aspects of one as background for the perception of the
other, and the other way around.

You are very right in pointing out that the numbers of possible
interactions among elements are extremely large. Combinatorics shows that
the interesting part of the interplay between sequenced and commutative
readings of symbols on an assembly takes place – in an idealized concept –
when reading off symbols of *~ 66 *carriers of symbols, leaving *~ 70 *as
background. The *relative *difference between the two readings is *~
350%, *which
allows for compression and expansion of anything and their grandmother too,
including space, energy, matter, structure, information, stability, etc.
The *absolute *difference is in the order of magnitude of ~ 10-94 % of
deviation*.* The number of distinct elementary occurrences near the
Eddington threshold of *n ~ 136 *is in the order of magnitude of *~ 10232. *Of
course, these are meaningless numbers outside of their own reference
system, because this multitude contains everything that can or can not be
the case, as such, as a stand-alone event, and also all the diverse
agglomerations that can be created out of so many possible interrelated
elementary occurrences. This is the result of the linear enumeration of the
planar coordinates that combine into 3 and more dimensions. The lineup of
the stripes of the flattened planes {into which spaces are projected/out of
which spaces are assembled}.

Thank you for presenting your approach. The suggestion may be allowed to
fuse the two ways of looking at symbols: as sequences and as groups.


Am Do., 2. März 2023 um 14:56 Uhr schrieb konstantin lidin <
lidinkl en hotmail.com>:

> Thank you, Howard.
> You are absolutely right, emotions are a powerful tool for understanding a
> person and the world. Unfortunately, they are very little studied (much
> less than cognitions) and mostly remain in the realm of the unconscious.
> The concept of "emotional intelligence" is often found in the scientific
> literature, but it most often means only the skill of recognizing basic
> emotions by the facial expression of the interlocutor. Obviously, this is
> absolutely not enough. As a result, emotions are often perceived as some
> kind of "demons" that prevent a person from thinking clearly and acting
> rationally, and from which it is desirable to get rid of altogether.
> This is very strange and inconvenient, especially considering the huge
> role that emotions play in people's behavior and in the economy. We rarely
> realize how much the price of emotions occupies in the consumer price of
> our everyday purchases. Here is an illustration - the price of coffee in
> its "natural" form, then the price of coffee preparation services, and then
> the price with the addition of prestige emotions (a fashion brand brings
> valuable emotions from the "joy - pride" group).
> In our daily life, spending on emotions accounts for about 90% of all
> expenses, and the richer the country, the greater this share
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom en aol.com>
> *Sent:* 02 March 2023 09:29
> *To:* lidinkl en hotmail.com <lidinkl en hotmail.com>;
> 13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com <13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com>
> *Cc:* fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>;
> roy.morrison114 en yahoo.com <roy.morrison114 en yahoo.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
> excellent point on the importance of emotions.  and on the commercial sale
> of emotions.
> i suspect that emotions are our fastest form of information processing.
> in other words, they have a wisdom of their own.
> with warmth and oomph--howard
> -----Original Message-----
> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl en hotmail.com>
> To: Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com>
> Cc: fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>; Roy Morrison <
> roy.morrison114 en yahoo.com>
> Sent: Wed, Mar 1, 2023 1:53 pm
> Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions
> Dear Francesco,
> indeed, it is difficult to understand such difficult ideas from such a
> brief message.
> For my part, I can add that emotions are a very popular commodity. For
> example, tourism is the sale of emotions of the "interest" group. Gambling
> is an industry of emotions of the group "excitement, risk". Cinema produces
> and sells emotions of a wide range, from "joy - pride" (comedies, family
> films) to "disgust" (horror and punk films), and so on. All these are
> market sectors with a turnover of hundreds of billions of USD per year.
> Note also that positive emotions (for example, such a kind of "joy -
> pride" emotions as prestige) often make up a significant part of wages in
> some areas.
> Unfortunately, emotions are still not taken into account in most economic
> models.
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo en gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 01 March 2023 23:49
> *To:* konstantin lidin <lidinkl en hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>; Roy Morrison <
> roy.morrison114 en yahoo.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
> Dear Konstantin,
> I would like to make the following contribution: in my new economy it is
> not necessary to separate humanitarian information and natural information,
> since I adopt a single trans-information process based on the 3 surpluses
> or thermodynamic, genetic and semiotic-hermeneutic information; that is, a
> theory of value underlying a single piece of information, consisting in
> giving or taking shape, measurable in bits of entropy (in natural-rational
> information and in neg-entropy (in emotional-human communication). So
> that the flow of information related to emotion, can give rise to what I
> call emo-rationality. Thank you! Do I have to apologize for my (non)
> simplicity?Francesco
> Caro Konstantin,
> desidero dare il seguente contributo: nella mia economia nuova non è
> necessario separare l'informazione
> umanitaria e l'informazione naturale, poiché adotto un unico processo di
> tras-informazione basato sui 3
> surplus o informazione termodinamica, genetica e  semiotico-ermeneutica;
> cioè una teoria del valore sottesa
> da un'unica informazione, consistente nel dare o nel  prendere forma,
> misurabile in bit di entropia (nella
> informazione natural-razionale e in neg-entropia (nella comu  nicazione
> emozional-umana). Sicchè il flusso di
> informazioni connesse all'emozione, può dar luogo a quella che io chiamo
> emo-ra-zionalità.
> Grazie! Dobbo scusarmi per la mia (non) sempicità?
> Francesco
> Il giorno mer 1 mar 2023 alle ore 09:11 konstantin lidin <
> lidinkl en hotmail.com> ha scritto:
> the calculation of the amount of information contained in one human
> personality is based on the following considerations:
> the number of nitrogenous bases in a DNA molecule is 3.2 billion. Each
> base contains two bits of information. In total, the amount of information
> in one DNA molecule is about a gigabyte (10^9);
> all cells of the human body are different and, therefore, the information
> in each cell does not coincide with the information in other cells.
> Therefore, the amount of information in the body needs to be multiplied by
> the number of cells - about 10 ^ 14;
> the total is 10 ^ 23 bytes, that is, one hundred zettabytes. Even
> considering that 99% of cellular information is repeated, the amount of
> unique information in a living organism is zettabytes. It is the amount of
> information per unit of mass that is the fundamental difference between a
> living organism and an inanimate one.
> Our model can be useful for the study of intrapsychic processes.
> Unfortunately, the format of a short message does not allow us to fully
> describe all the results obtained over twenty-five years of development of
> this model.
> You are absolutely right; the human personality is complex enough that its
> individual fragments can experience different emotions at the same time. A
> person can simultaneously experience fear of a shark, tenderness and trust
> in it, sadness from his loneliness in the middle of an endless ocean, and
> so on.
> The role of hormones and neurotransmitters in the movement of information
> through the nervous system has not been sufficiently studied.  The
> processes occurring in the synaptic cleft are associated with the
> adaptation of the nervous system to the nature of the flow of information.
> The balance of neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft corresponds to the
> characteristics of the information flow - for example, adrenaline promotes
> the passage of chaotic flows (emotion "fear"), and gamma-aminobutyric acid
> "adjusts" the nervous system to weak information flows (sadness).
> Rapid and strong changes in the balance of neurotransmitters correspond to
> "emotional storms", which is so characteristic of young poets...
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Roy Morrison <roy.morrison114 en yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* 01 March 2023 06:54
> *To:* fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>; konstantin lidin <
> lidinkl en hotmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
> Konstantin
> I powerful and important take on emotions as experience of information
> flow.
> Really appreciate "In turn, we understand information as a structural
> aspect of the existence of matter, along with the inertial aspect
> (substance) and the dynamic aspect (energy). We believe that information is
> no less material than matter and energy. "
>  and
> "The total amount of information contained on all media in all libraries,
> archives and other repositories of mankind is about a zettabyte (10^23
> bits). About the same amount of information contains one human personality."
>     From my experience as a lunatic, ok as a neurotic, the complexity of
> emotion is complicated by issues of  what is conscious/ repressed/
> unconscious.
> Your model making distinctions between Order-Chaos and Weak flow- Intense
> Flow does not fully explain issues of unconscious roiling repression this
> is driven in part by hormonal emotional activation and repression. At the
> same time I recognize the common and shared emotional expression we share
> across species.
> Watching video of a fisherman who saved a great white shark trapped it
> nets. The shark keep returning to the fishman's small boat for days. Shark
> rolled on her? back next to his boat so he could spoke her belly to her
> great pleasure.Evolutionary we share  common emotional expression and the
> similar brain chemicals.
> Roy
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