[Fis] emotions

Pedro C. Marijuán pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com
Sat Mar 11 13:52:31 CET 2023

Dear Konstantin and FIS Colleagues,

Thanks a lot for all the ideas in your initial texts and in the 
responses. I would like to receive some further comments in a few  
issues (better if you take some time and different days to answer--also 
to attract other parties to the reflection).

First, the James Russell's "circumplex model" (1980). That Cartesian 
diagram of emotions you present is an interesting variant of what he 
published involving "arousal" and "valence" as main coordinates. There 
has been quite a few development and changes thereafter, with another 
relevant graphic model by Robert Plutchik (also in 1980!) known as the 
"emotion wheel", interesting to discuss the combinatoric of emotions. 
Unfortunately much of the later research has gone to describe more and 
more emotion lists, larger and larger ones. So, it is very interesting 
to see your causal model related to the info flow. Although some 
reference to the Connectome and the role of the different areas could 
also be interesting (not only the synapse) to enlarge the panorama.

Second, about the life cycle. If emotions are what makes us human (which 
I agree), we would see an ontogenetic development of the emotional 
panoply, according to age, gender, and personality, and also with 
cultural modifications or channeling in the expression of emotions. This 
should affect, I think, the configuration of that Cartesian diagram. And 
in this aspect the difference between sentiments and emotions has to be 
clarified regarding also their "permanence" in time.

Third, the relationship with rationality. Reminding System1 and System2 
reaction types described by Kahneman, there could be an interesting 
connection with our "identity", guarded by emotions as a sort of 
behavioral "immune system" that tries to preserve our fitness. So, 
System 1 works as an emotional system that helps to preserve our 
immediate maintenance in time, in an innate way (like the innate branch 
of our immune system), later on complemented by System 2 "adaptive" mass 
of experiential learning and rationality. In this link with identity, 
maybe the ideas of Sheri Markose and Lou Kauffman could dovetail here.

And fourth, I am very interested in your application to urbanism (and 
other related aspects) and in general concerning the essential role of 
emotions in our daily life. In particular, the connection with urbanism 
has never been discussed in our list.

Thanks again for your stimulating views (I leave the discussion on 
information metrics & dynamics for further exchanges).


El 02/03/2023 a las 14:55, konstantin lidin escribió:
> Thank you, Howard.
> You are absolutely right, emotions are a powerful tool for 
> understanding a person and the world. Unfortunately, they are very 
> little studied (much less than cognitions) and mostly remain in the 
> realm of the unconscious. The concept of "emotional intelligence" is 
> often found in the scientific literature, but it most often means only 
> the skill of recognizing basic emotions by the facial expression of 
> the interlocutor. Obviously, this is absolutely not enough. As a 
> result, emotions are often perceived as some kind of "demons" that 
> prevent a person from thinking clearly and acting rationally, and from 
> which it is desirable to get rid of altogether.
> This is very strange and inconvenient, especially considering the huge 
> role that emotions play in people's behavior and in the economy. We 
> rarely realize how much the price of emotions occupies in the consumer 
> price of our everyday purchases. Here is an illustration - the price 
> of coffee in its "natural" form, then the price of coffee preparation 
> services, and then the price with the addition of prestige emotions (a 
> fashion brand brings valuable emotions from the "joy - pride" group).
> In our daily life, spending on emotions accounts for about 90% of all 
> expenses, and the richer the country, the greater this share
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
> *Sent:* 02 March 2023 09:29
> *To:* lidinkl at hotmail.com <lidinkl at hotmail.com>; 
> 13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; 
> roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
> excellent point on the importance of emotions.  and on the commercial 
> sale of emotions.
> i suspect that emotions are our fastest form of information 
> processing.  in other words, they have a wisdom of their own.
> with warmth and oomph--howard
> -----Original Message-----
> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
> To: Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
> Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; Roy Morrison 
> <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Wed, Mar 1, 2023 1:53 pm
> Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions
> Dear Francesco,
> indeed, it is difficult to understand such difficult ideas from such a 
> brief message.
> For my part, I can add that emotions are a very popular commodity. For 
> example, tourism is the sale of emotions of the "interest" group. 
> Gambling is an industry of emotions of the group "excitement, risk". 
> Cinema produces and sells emotions of a wide range, from "joy - pride" 
> (comedies, family films) to "disgust" (horror and punk films), and so 
> on. All these are market sectors with a turnover of hundreds of 
> billions of USD per year.
> Note also that positive emotions (for example, such a kind of "joy - 
> pride" emotions as prestige) often make up a significant part of wages 
> in some areas.
> Unfortunately, emotions are still not taken into account in most 
> economic models.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* 01 March 2023 23:49
> *To:* konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; Roy Morrison 
> <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
> Dear Konstantin,
> I would like to make the following contribution: in my new economy it 
> is not necessary to separate humanitarian information and natural 
> information, since I adopt a single trans-information process based on 
> the 3 surpluses or thermodynamic, genetic and semiotic-hermeneutic 
> information; that is, a theory of value underlying a single piece of 
> information, consisting in giving or taking shape, measurable in bits 
> of entropy (in natural-rational information and in neg-entropy (in 
> emotional-human communication). So that the flow of information 
> related to emotion, can give rise to what I call 
> emo-rationality. Thank you! Do I have to apologize for my (non) 
> simplicity?Francesco
> Caro Konstantin,
> desidero dare il seguente contributo: nella mia economia nuova non è 
> necessario separare l'informazione
> umanitaria e l'informazione naturale, poiché adotto un unico processo 
> di tras-informazione basato sui 3
> surplus o informazione termodinamica, genetica e  
> semiotico-ermeneutica; cioè una teoria del valore sottesa
> da un'unica informazione, consistente nel dare o nel  prendere forma, 
> misurabile in bit di entropia (nella
> informazione natural-razionale e in neg-entropia (nella comu  
> nicazione emozional-umana). Sicchè il flusso di
> informazioni connesse all'emozione, può dar luogo a quella che io 
> chiamo emo-ra-zionalità.
> Grazie! Dobbo scusarmi per la mia (non) sempicità?
> Francesco
> Il giorno mer 1 mar 2023 alle ore 09:11 konstantin lidin 
> <lidinkl at hotmail.com <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com>> ha scritto:
>     the calculation of the amount of information contained in one
>     human personality is based on the following considerations:
>     the number of nitrogenous bases in a DNA molecule is 3.2 billion.
>     Each base contains two bits of information. In total, the amount
>     of information in one DNA molecule is about a gigabyte (10^9);
>     all cells of the human body are different and, therefore, the
>     information in each cell does not coincide with the information in
>     other cells. Therefore, the amount of information in the body
>     needs to be multiplied by the number of cells - about 10 ^ 14;
>     the total is 10 ^ 23 bytes, that is, one hundred zettabytes. Even
>     considering that 99% of cellular information is repeated, the
>     amount of unique information in a living organism is zettabytes.
>     It is the amount of information per unit of mass that is the
>     fundamental difference between a living organism and an inanimate one.
>     Our model can be useful for the study of intrapsychic processes.
>     Unfortunately, the format of a short message does not allow us to
>     fully describe all the results obtained over twenty-five years of
>     development of this model.
>     You are absolutely right; the human personality is complex enough
>     that its individual fragments can experience different emotions at
>     the same time. A person can simultaneously experience fear of a
>     shark, tenderness and trust in it, sadness from his loneliness in
>     the middle of an endless ocean, and so on.
>     The role of hormones and neurotransmitters in the movement of
>     information through the nervous system has not been sufficiently
>     studied. The processes occurring in the synaptic cleft are
>     associated with the adaptation of the nervous system to the nature
>     of the flow of information. The balance of neurotransmitters in
>     the synaptic cleft corresponds to the characteristics of the
>     information flow - for example, adrenaline promotes the passage of
>     chaotic flows (emotion "fear"), and gamma-aminobutyric acid
>     "adjusts" the nervous system to weak information flows (sadness).
>     Rapid and strong changes in the balance of neurotransmitters
>     correspond to "emotional storms", which is so characteristic of
>     young poets...
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Roy Morrison <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com
>     <mailto:roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>>
>     *Sent:* 01 March 2023 06:54
>     *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es
>     <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es
>     <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>; konstantin lidin
>     <lidinkl at hotmail.com <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Fis] emotions
>     Konstantin
>     I powerful and important take on emotions as experience of
>     information flow.
>     Really appreciate "In turn, we understand information as a
>     structural aspect of the existence of matter, along with the
>     inertial aspect (substance) and the dynamic aspect (energy). We
>     believe that information is no less material than matter and energy. "
>      and
>     "The total amount of information contained on all media in all
>     libraries, archives and other repositories of mankind is about a
>     zettabyte (10^23 bits). About the same amount of information
>     contains one human personality."
>         From my experience as a lunatic, ok as a neurotic, the
>     complexity of emotion is complicated by issues of  what is
>     conscious/ repressed/ unconscious.
>     Your model making distinctions between Order-Chaos and Weak flow-
>     Intense Flow does not fully explain issues of unconscious roiling
>     repression this is driven in part by hormonal emotional activation
>     and repression. At the same time I recognize the common and shared
>     emotional expression we share across species.
>     Watching video of a fisherman who saved a great white shark
>     trapped it nets. The shark keep returning to the fishman's small
>     boat for days. Shark rolled on her? back next to his boat so he
>     could spoke her belly to her great pleasure.Evolutionary we share 
>     common emotional expression and the similar brain chemicals.
>     Roy
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