[Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shannon (1948); back to the basics?
Mariusz Stanowski
stanowskimariusz at wp.pl
Wed Jan 25 09:39:18 CET 2023
Dear Francesco,
I agree with your intuition, but more general and objective than
*"information is TAKING shape by someone or something"* is "*information
is an interaction or contrast between considered objects. *
Our reality is composed of entities (objects, features, structures) that
we can somehow distinguish. These structures interact with each other
through common and differentiating features, that is through contrast.
The common features cause the different features to be
compared/combined. This creates a tension, which is the very essence of
any interaction. One can easily verify that this is what every
interaction in nature, whether physical or mental, is based on.
The Gregory Bateson's famous definition: (A unit of) *Information is a
Difference that Makes a Difference is similar but not precise* because
only differences does not exist (without common features),
there are only contrasts/interactions. Until today contrast is
incorrectly understood as a big difference and there is no
understanding/definition of interaction.
Below is more about contrast:
Let’s consider what makes this definition different from existing
general definitions of contrast? For example, in French dictionary
contrast is defined as: “opposition (contradistinction) between two or
more things, emphasized and highlighted by their closeness or a mutual
relationship”? In the first place, the new definition enables to analyze
contrast which is understood here as the impact of varying value
(contrast may be stronger or weaker), whereas existing definitions
describe contrast as some extreme value: opposition, contradiction or a
major distinction.
The second modification is that we take into account common features of
contrasting objects, which, just like differentiating features, may
differ in terms of impact power and effect they have on the magnitude of
contrast.
The third change has to do with the nature of contrast being understood
as tension resulting from the impacts of common and differentiating
features.
And the fourth change is that contrast so far has been understood as a
big difference or contradiction, and, in consequence, it took into
account only one feature (one quality) of contrasting objects – it is
the opposition within the same feature (for example: small-large or
light-dark). The new definition of contrast takes into account all
features of contrasting objects (all common and differentiating
features) and thus takes into account the diversity and complexity of
objects.
Best regards
Mariusz
W dniu 25.01.2023 o 08:13, Francesco Rizzo pisze:
> Dear Mariusz, I agree with what you wrote, because it coincides with
> what I have written repeatedly in the Fis discussions. However, I
> suggest, once again, to define information as a TAKING shape by
> someone or something, abstractly or concretely or as a GIVING shape to
> someone or something, abstractly or concretely. All the appreciated
> examples you listed are nothing more than values-concepts of different
> forms or forms of different values-concepts. Values-concepts that are
> transformed, giving rise to what I call processes of
> trans-into-form-action. Congratulations and best wishes.
> Francesco.
> Caro Mariusz,
> condivido quanto hai scritto, perchè coincide con quanto ho scritto
> ripetute volte nelle discussioni Fis. Tuttavia suggerisco,
> ancora una volta, di definire l'informazione come un PRENDERE forma da
> parte di qualcuno o qualcosa, in astratto o in concreto
> oppure come un DARE forma a qualcuno o qualcosa, in astratto o in
> concreto. Tutti gli apprezzati esempi che hai elencato, non
> sono altro che dei valori-concetti delle diverse forme o delle forme
> dei diversi valori-concetti. Valori-concetti che si tras-formano
> dando luogo a quelli che io chiamo processi di tras-in-form-azione.
> Complimenti e saluti augurali.
> Francesco.
>
> Il giorno mar 24 gen 2023 alle ore 16:17 Mariusz Stanowski
> <stanowskimariusz at wp.pl> ha scritto:
>
> You are right, it should be "can represent" or "can be considered"
> instead of "is".
>
> Thank you!
> Mariusz
>
>>
>> W dniu 24.01.2023 o 15:25, Alex Hankey pisze:
>> How about:
>> *Anything that can be distinguished in any way can represent
>> *Information **
>> I LIKE Your Approach, Maiuscz, Thanks!
>>
>
> W dniu 24.01.2023 o 14:00, Mariusz Stanowski pisze:
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>>> I would like to take the opportunity to share a definition of
>>> information that is general enough to reconcile existing
>>> definitions and understandings of information, including
>>> ontological and epistemological information. I would appreciate
>>> Your questions and comments.
>>>
>>> *Information is anything that can be distinguish in any
>>> way*(both in and out of the mind and also in a mind-dependent
>>> and mind-independent way).
>>>
>>> Examples of information:
>>>
>>> Information as a feature - size (e.g. of a tree)
>>>
>>> Information as form - shape (e.g. of a stone)
>>>
>>> Information as an object - a stone
>>>
>>> Information as an abstract concept - e.g. whiteness
>>>
>>> Information as structure - e.g. any distinguishable regularity
>>> in a binary structure
>>>
>>> Any information interacts, so it must have energy. E.g. a
>>> binary structure must have ones-impulses of energy and their
>>> absence - zeros.Structures in our mind are also equipped with
>>> energy.
>>>
>>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Mariusz Stanowski
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> W dniu 24.01.2023 o 10:59, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch pisze:
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> The last two messages, taken together, make a lot of sense:
>>> Howard's definition has the merit of simplicity, and
>>> Konstantin's necessary extension introduces the question of quality.
>>>
>>> The only way I have found to answer it is to relax several
>>> abusive absolute dichotomies, in particular, that between 1)
>>> subjective and objective and 2) of their total separation.
>>>
>>> In any specific case, I assume that the terms differ in degree
>>> of actuality and potentiality, not only, say, information and
>>> noise, relevancy and non-relevancy and similar pairs.
>>>
>>> This approach excludes, however, talking about information at
>>> the level of quarks and their "associations" since nothing is
>>> added to the basic physics.
>>>
>>> Thank you and best wishes,
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> ----Original Message----
>>> From : lidinkl at hotmail.com
>>> Date : 24/01/2023 - 08:33 (E)
>>> To : fis at listas.unizar.es, loet at leydesdorff.net,
>>> howlbloom at aol.com
>>> Subject : Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil
>>> (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>>
>>> Thank you, Howard.
>>> Your definition of information practically coincides with
>>> Shannon's definition, only elementary (sub-elementary)
>>> particles act as inductors and recipients.
>>> In the next step, however, this approach leads us to the
>>> notion of information quality. A message can contain both a
>>> signal (relevant information) and noise. But the notion of
>>> relevance of information is subjective. Relevance is
>>> compliance with the goals that the inductor-recipient pair
>>> sets when exchanging information.
>>> Do you think quarks and protons have goals and free will?
>>> This is a very important question, because in most areas,
>>> except for the Shannon theory of communication, the quality
>>> of information is ignored. The subjectivity of this
>>> parameter looks too shocking to include it in a decent
>>> academic model (about the same way the Heisenberg
>>> uncertainty principle is still perceived)
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
>>> <mailto:howlbloom at aol.com>
>>> *Sent:* 24 January 2023 08:21
>>> *To:* lidinkl at hotmail.com <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
>>> <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com>; fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> <fis at listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>;
>>> loet at leydesdorff.net <loet at leydesdorff.net>
>>> <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil
>>> (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>> the definition of information in my book The God Problem:
>>> How a Godless Cosmos Creates:
>>>
>>> information is anything a sender emits that a receiver
>>> can interpret.
>>>
>>>
>>> the first information appears when the first quarks emerge
>>> in the first 10-34 of a second of the big bang. quarks read
>>> each other's social signals of attraction or repulsion and
>>> acted on them to gang up in groups of two or three, thus
>>> forming protons and neutrons, which also gave off social
>>> signals and agglomerated in proton-neutron teams.
>>>
>>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
>>> <mailto:lidinkl at hotmail.com>
>>> To: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>; Loet Leydesdorff
>>> <loet at leydesdorff.net> <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>
>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil
>>> (1972) derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, Shannon's definition can only be used in a
>>> very narrow class of cases. When we consider any process
>>> other than the transmission of a message from the inductor
>>> to the recipient, this definition does not work.
>>> The most authoritative researchers of the philosophy of
>>> information admit that there is still no general definition.
>>> The concepts of information in different spheres differ
>>> significantly and cannot be combined into something commonly
>>> used
>>> Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction: The Philosophy
>>> of Information. /Topoi/ *35*, 157–159 (2016).
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TXvW-gW8pWR5wCJofObhmSLViw5dUZ9pBrvJLiCEvLkEDzPv_Dq0hHARVTxPdiIHFnrsNxTFq0KiJdlRUDh5dqDImh3B$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SXg13tbkdIexlHicpgmmFoFwIcpgeHl3c2rgtD9HsQHuKRQodSQhjWMYAL-3r-YyBOXRc3vMzQUkPXSVFHs$>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>
>>> <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Loet
>>> Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net> <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>
>>> *Sent:* 23 January 2023 23:29
>>> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Subject:* [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972)
>>> derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>> Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:
>>> */1.1. /* */Information/*
>>> Consider an event /E /with probability /p; / the nature of
>>> the event is irrelevant. At some point in time we receive a
>>> reliable message stating that /E /in fact occurred. The
>>> question is: How should one measure the amount of
>>> information conveyed by this message?
>>> /Information/
>>> Since the question is vague, we shall try to answer it in an
>>> intuitive manner. Suppose that /p /is close to 1 (e.g., /p =
>>> /.95). Then, one may argue, the message conveys very little
>>> information, because it was virtually certain that /E w/ould
>>> take place. But suppose that /p = .01, /so that it is almost
>>> certain /E /will not occur. If /E /nevertheless does occur,
>>> the message stating this will be unexpected and hence
>>> contains a great deal of information.
>>>
>>> These intuitive ideas suggest that, if we want to measure
>>> the information derived from a message in terms of the
>>> probability /p / that prevailed before or to the arrival of
>>> the message, we should select a /decreasing / function. The
>>> function proposed by SHANNON (1948) is when the probability
>>> prior to the message is zero) to 0 (zero information when
>>> the probability is one).
>>>
>>> The unit of information is determined by the base of the
>>> logarithm. Frequently 2 is used as a base, which implies
>>> that any message concerning a 50-50 event has unit
>>> information: h() = log _2 2 = 1, and information is then
>>> said to be measured in binary digits or, for short, /bits. /
>>> When natural logarithms are used, the information unit is a
>>> /nit. /
>>> /
>>> /
>>> /best, loet/
>>> /
>>> /
>>> *_______________*
>>> *Loet Leydesdorff*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *"The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discusive Knowledge"
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-59951-5__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLLuhNS00$>(Open
>>> Access)*
>>> Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
>>> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
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>>>
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