[Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shannon (1948); back to the basics?

Tue Jan 24 23:39:48 CET 2023

> Information is anything that can be distinguished in any way

Is there anything that exists that cannot be distinguished in any way?

If not, what is the discriminatory power of this definition?

On Tue, 24 Jan 2023 at 14:00, Mariusz Stanowski <stanowskimariusz at wp.pl>
wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> I would like to take the opportunity to share a definition of information
> that is general enough to reconcile existing definitions and understandings
> of information, including ontological and epistemological information. I
> would appreciate Your questions and comments.
>
>  *Information is anything that can be distinguish in any way* (both in
> and out of the mind and also in a mind-dependent and mind-independent way).
>
>  Examples of information:
>
> Information as a feature - size (e.g. of a tree)
>
> Information as form - shape (e.g. of a stone)
>
> Information as an object - a stone
>
> Information as an abstract concept - e.g. whiteness
>
> Information as structure - e.g. any distinguishable regularity in a binary
> structure
>
>  Any information interacts, so it must have energy. E.g. a binary
> structure must have ones-impulses of energy and their absence - zeros. Structures
> in our mind are also equipped with energy.
>
> Best regards
>
> Mariusz Stanowski
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> W dniu 24.01.2023 o 10:59, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch pisze:
>
> Dear All,
>
> The last two messages, taken together, make a lot of sense: Howard's
> definition has the merit of simplicity, and Konstantin's necessary
> extension introduces the question of quality.
>
> The only way I have found to answer it is to relax several abusive
> absolute dichotomies, in particular, that between 1) subjective and
> objective and 2) of their total separation.
>
> In any specific case, I assume that the terms differ in degree of
> actuality and potentiality, not only, say,  information and noise,
> relevancy and non-relevancy and similar pairs.
>
> This approach excludes, however, talking about information at the level of
> quarks and their "associations" since nothing is added to the basic
> physics.
>
> Thank you and best wishes,
> Joseph
>
> ----Original Message----
> From : lidinkl at hotmail.com
> Date : 24/01/2023 - 08:33 (E)
> To : fis at listas.unizar.es, loet at leydesdorff.net, howlbloom at aol.com
> Subject : Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived
> from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>
> Thank you, Howard.
> Your definition of information practically coincides with Shannon's
> definition, only elementary (sub-elementary) particles act as inductors and
> recipients.
> In the next step, however, this approach leads us to the notion of
> information quality. A message can contain both a signal (relevant
> information) and noise. But the notion of relevance of information is
> subjective. Relevance is compliance with the goals that the
> inductor-recipient pair sets when exchanging information.
> Do you think quarks and protons have goals and free will?
> This is a very important question, because in most areas, except for the
> Shannon theory of communication, the quality of information is ignored. The
> subjectivity of this parameter looks too shocking to include it in a decent
> academic model (about the same way the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is
> still perceived)
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com> <howlbloom at aol.com>
> *Sent:* 24 January 2023 08:21
> *To:* lidinkl at hotmail.com <lidinkl at hotmail.com> <lidinkl at hotmail.com>;
> fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> loet at leydesdorff.net <loet at leydesdorff.net> <loet at leydesdorff.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived
> from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>
> the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a Godless
> Cosmos Creates:
>
> information is anything a sender emits that a receiver can interpret.
>
>
> the first information appears when the first quarks emerge in the first
> 10-34 of a second of the big bang.  quarks read each other's social signals
> of attraction or repulsion and acted on them to gang up in groups of two or
> three, thus forming protons and neutrons, which also gave off social
> signals and agglomerated in proton-neutron teams.
>
> with warmth and oomph--howard
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com> <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
> To: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net> <loet at leydesdorff.net>
> Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm
> Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from
> Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>
> Unfortunately, Shannon's definition can only be used in a very narrow
> class of cases. When we consider any process other than the transmission of
> a message from the inductor to the recipient, this definition does not
> work.
> The most authoritative researchers of the philosophy of information admit
> that there is still no general definition. The concepts of information in
> different spheres differ significantly and cannot be combined into
> something commonly used
> Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction: The Philosophy of Information. *
> Topoi* *35*, 157–159 (2016). https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XAnOzGusZa0uKRlE-7Sptx4Zyv-GUTSkUrHck5An9xBsMCVpkZc6CRcbUXRLPb0-8bD_NHEdKOsC2TfkCxWehVKLwBkL$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SXg13tbkdIexlHicpgmmFoFwIcpgeHl3c2rgtD9HsQHuKRQodSQhjWMYAL-3r-YyBOXRc3vMzQUkPXSVFHs$>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>
> on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net>
> <loet at leydesdorff.net>
> *Sent:* 23 January 2023 23:29
> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from
> Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>
> Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:
> *1.1. * *Information*
> Consider an event *E *with probability *p; * the nature of the event is
> irrelevant. At some point in time we receive a reliable message stating
> that *E *in fact occurred. The question is: How should one measure the
> amount of information conveyed by this message?
> *Information*
> Since the question is vague, we shall try to answer it in an intuitive
> manner. Suppose that *p *is close to 1 (e.g., *p = *.95). Then, one may
> argue, the message conveys very little information, because it was
> virtually certain that *E w*ould take place. But suppose that *p = .01, *so
> that it is almost certain *E *will not occur. If *E *nevertheless does
> occur, the message stating this will be unexpected and hence contains a
> great deal of information.
>
> These intuitive ideas suggest that, if we want to measure the information
> derived from a message in terms of the probability *p * that prevailed
> before or to the arrival of the message, we should select a *decreasing * function.
> The function proposed by SHANNON (1948) is  when the probability prior to
> the message is zero) to 0 (zero information when the probability is one).
>
> The unit of information is determined by the base of the logarithm.
> Frequently 2 is used as a base, which implies that any message concerning a
> 50-50 event has unit information: h() = log 2 2 = 1, and information is
> then said to be measured in binary digits or, for short, *bits. * When
> natural logarithms are used, the information unit is a *nit. *
>
> *best, loet*
>
> *_______________*
> *Loet Leydesdorff*
>
> *"The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discusive Knowledge"
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> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
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