[Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972) derived from Shannon (1948); back to the basics?
Mariusz Stanowski
stanowskimariusz at wp.pl
Tue Jan 24 16:16:23 CET 2023
You are right, it should be "can represent" or "can be considered"
instead of "is".
Thank you!
Mariusz
>
> W dniu 24.01.2023 o 15:25, Alex Hankey pisze:
> How about:
> *Anything that can be distinguished in any way can represent
> *Information **
> I LIKE Your Approach, Maiuscz, Thanks!
>
W dniu 24.01.2023 o 14:00, Mariusz Stanowski pisze:
>
>
> Hello,
>
>> I would like to take the opportunity to share a definition of
>> information that is general enough to reconcile existing definitions
>> and understandings of information, including ontological and
>> epistemological information. I would appreciate Your questions and
>> comments.
>>
>> *Information is anything that can be distinguish in any way*(both in
>> and out of the mind and also in a mind-dependent and mind-independent
>> way).
>>
>> Examples of information:
>>
>> Information as a feature - size (e.g. of a tree)
>>
>> Information as form - shape (e.g. of a stone)
>>
>> Information as an object - a stone
>>
>> Information as an abstract concept - e.g. whiteness
>>
>> Information as structure - e.g. any distinguishable regularity in a
>> binary structure
>>
>> Any information interacts, so it must have energy. E.g. a binary
>> structure must have ones-impulses of energy and their absence -
>> zeros.Structures in our mind are also equipped with energy.
>>
>>
> Best regards
>
> Mariusz Stanowski
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> W dniu 24.01.2023 o 10:59, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch pisze:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> The last two messages, taken together, make a lot of sense: Howard's
>> definition has the merit of simplicity, and Konstantin's necessary
>> extension introduces the question of quality.
>>
>> The only way I have found to answer it is to relax several abusive
>> absolute dichotomies, in particular, that between 1) subjective and
>> objective and 2) of their total separation.
>>
>> In any specific case, I assume that the terms differ in degree of
>> actuality and potentiality, not only, say, information and noise,
>> relevancy and non-relevancy and similar pairs.
>>
>> This approach excludes, however, talking about information at the
>> level of quarks and their "associations" since nothing is added to
>> the basic physics.
>>
>> Thank you and best wishes,
>> Joseph
>>
>> ----Original Message----
>> From : lidinkl at hotmail.com
>> Date : 24/01/2023 - 08:33 (E)
>> To : fis at listas.unizar.es, loet at leydesdorff.net, howlbloom at aol.com
>> Subject : Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972)
>> derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>
>> Thank you, Howard.
>> Your definition of information practically coincides with
>> Shannon's definition, only elementary (sub-elementary) particles
>> act as inductors and recipients.
>> In the next step, however, this approach leads us to the notion
>> of information quality. A message can contain both a signal
>> (relevant information) and noise. But the notion of relevance of
>> information is subjective. Relevance is compliance with the goals
>> that the inductor-recipient pair sets when exchanging information.
>> Do you think quarks and protons have goals and free will?
>> This is a very important question, because in most areas, except
>> for the Shannon theory of communication, the quality of
>> information is ignored. The subjectivity of this parameter looks
>> too shocking to include it in a decent academic model (about the
>> same way the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is still perceived)
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
>> *Sent:* 24 January 2023 08:21
>> *To:* lidinkl at hotmail.com <lidinkl at hotmail.com>;
>> fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; loet at leydesdorff.net
>> <loet at leydesdorff.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972)
>> derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>> the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a
>> Godless Cosmos Creates:
>>
>> information is anything a sender emits that a receiver can
>> interpret.
>>
>>
>> the first information appears when the first quarks emerge in the
>> first 10-34 of a second of the big bang. quarks read each
>> other's social signals of attraction or repulsion and acted on
>> them to gang up in groups of two or three, thus forming protons
>> and neutrons, which also gave off social signals and agglomerated
>> in proton-neutron teams.
>>
>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
>> To: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; Loet Leydesdorff
>> <loet at leydesdorff.net>
>> Sent: Mon, Jan 23, 2023 1:31 pm
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972)
>> derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>>
>> Unfortunately, Shannon's definition can only be used in a very
>> narrow class of cases. When we consider any process other than
>> the transmission of a message from the inductor to the recipient,
>> this definition does not work.
>> The most authoritative researchers of the philosophy of
>> information admit that there is still no general definition. The
>> concepts of information in different spheres differ significantly
>> and cannot be combined into something commonly used
>> Baumgaertner, B., Floridi, L. Introduction: The Philosophy of
>> Information. /Topoi/ *35*, 157–159 (2016).
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VTMZIny_MaZ4y8_qiUKOEaLF2fMFI-W6a4BBnSZPcnMaVWclgsHTO0HQzwmfAlpmAjK-wD-Jhj-isrxIBIF_pwc1hp1B$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s11245-016-9370-7__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SXg13tbkdIexlHicpgmmFoFwIcpgeHl3c2rgtD9HsQHuKRQodSQhjWMYAL-3r-YyBOXRc3vMzQUkPXSVFHs$>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Loet
>> Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net>
>> *Sent:* 23 January 2023 23:29
>> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject:* [Fis] definitions of information by Theil (1972)
>> derived from Shnnon (1948); back to the basics?
>> Theil (1972) pp. 1 and 2:
>> */1.1. /* */Information/*
>> Consider an event /E /with probability /p; / the nature of the
>> event is irrelevant. At some point in time we receive a reliable
>> message stating that /E /in fact occurred. The question is: How
>> should one measure the amount of information conveyed by this
>> message?
>> /Information/
>> Since the question is vague, we shall try to answer it in an
>> intuitive manner. Suppose that /p /is close to 1 (e.g., /p =
>> /.95). Then, one may argue, the message conveys very little
>> information, because it was virtually certain that /E w/ould take
>> place. But suppose that /p = .01, /so that it is almost certain
>> /E /will not occur. If /E /nevertheless does occur, the message
>> stating this will be unexpected and hence contains a great deal
>> of information.
>>
>> These intuitive ideas suggest that, if we want to measure the
>> information derived from a message in terms of the probability /p
>> / that prevailed before or to the arrival of the message, we
>> should select a /decreasing / function. The function proposed by
>> SHANNON (1948) is when the probability prior to the message is
>> zero) to 0 (zero information when the probability is one).
>>
>> The unit of information is determined by the base of the
>> logarithm. Frequently 2 is used as a base, which implies that any
>> message concerning a 50-50 event has unit information: h() = log
>> _2 2 = 1, and information is then said to be measured in binary
>> digits or, for short, /bits. / When natural logarithms are used,
>> the information unit is a /nit. /
>> /
>> /
>> /best, loet/
>> /
>> /
>> *_______________*
>> *Loet Leydesdorff*
>> *
>> *
>> *"The Evolutionary Dynamics of Discusive Knowledge"
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-59951-5__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLLuhNS00$>(Open
>> Access)*
>> Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
>> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>> loet at leydesdorff.net ; https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.leydesdorff.net/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VTMZIny_MaZ4y8_qiUKOEaLF2fMFI-W6a4BBnSZPcnMaVWclgsHTO0HQzwmfAlpmAjK-wD-Jhj-isrxIBIF_p-x_1D0q$
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>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VTMZIny_MaZ4y8_qiUKOEaLF2fMFI-W6a4BBnSZPcnMaVWclgsHTO0HQzwmfAlpmAjK-wD-Jhj-isrxIBIF_pw7SoyMP$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLaBGhTzQ$>
>>
>> ORCID: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VTMZIny_MaZ4y8_qiUKOEaLF2fMFI-W6a4BBnSZPcnMaVWclgsHTO0HQzwmfAlpmAjK-wD-Jhj-isrxIBIF_p1zcSm74$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UCpI3A8EWvaVDmOuc9hvIQ63G4mDCTSSAo-msd5Fp1s28PF75NWu969e_W5KiezGFeMPMGFtXsQLH5t9V6o$>;
>>
>>
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>> __________________________
>> Howard Bloom
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