[Fis] [External Email] Re: Wake up call. Poetry and Non-Utility. Bisociation

Wed May 19 18:07:52 CEST 2021

Dear Dai and All,

This brief note of Dai’s raises some extremely important philosophical issues, as have other recent notes, about which I am sure we will both agree and disagree. For example, I agree that seeing ‘connections’, insights and keeping the mind flexible are all ‘good’ things, but I disagree with the value ascribed to metaphors. They may result in making it difficult to see things as they are, and real art for me is about the latter, not the former. Seeing one thing in terms of another is for me a description of Peircean signs, one thing ‘standing’ for another, and standing for me means standing still.

My thanks to Dai for filling a gap in my knowledge; I was not aware of Koestler’s bisociation, mentally combining two things to form a third. This can certainly be part of the creative process, without exhausting it. 

In any case, poetry is suggestive for us students of information and information flows since it makes very real the different (recursive and entangled) levels at which things can be interpreted. Thus, in my opinion, it is not absolutely necessary, as suggested by Howard, that science be placed at a ‘higher’ level to insure the value of both.

Best wishes,

Joseph 

  _____  

From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Dai Griffiths
Sent: mercredi, 19 mai 2021 16:55
To: fis at listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: Wake up call. Poetry and Utility

Perhaps a rather mundane view on this is that part of the importance of poetry, and the other arts, is to do with metaphor. Seeing one thing in terms of another is, I think, a good practice for keeping the mind flexible. It would be interesting to know what cognitive effects might result from doing cryptic crosswords every day.

Metaphor can also lead to insight, as proposed by Bateson's 'pattern that connects', and also by Koestler's concept of bisociation. Seeing more of these connections can only help us.

Best,

Dai

On 15/05/2021 10:56, Joseph Brenner wrote:

Dear Karl and Stan,

Thank you for this truly transdisciplinary exchange. My suggestion is that the “restarting” of thinking that Karl describes in fact takes place numerous times, as there are unfortunately many “restoppings” in life as well.  

Also, however, if poetry can have the role that you both describe, is it just to say it is not useful? Perhaps its utility (and that of other art) in our mental Haushalt is much greater than it is usually given credit for.

Best,

Joseph

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 3:50 PM Stanley N Salthe < <mailto:ssalthe at binghamton.edu> ssalthe at binghamton.edu> wrote:

Karl -- I think that you have touched upon an interesting way to suggest the meaning and effect of poetry. Since it is not concerned with

presenting factual or useful information, we may well search for a raison d'etre of poetry.  It is, I think, a way of eliciting understandings

that are not available by way of everyday language use, but which many of us had some more direct way of engaging when we were young 

at certain ages.  So poetry may be viewed as a technique for eliciting feelings by way of providing guidance through unusual imagery, which

may be evoked verbally.  This supposes that the reader of poetry is seriously engaged -- a condition of the 'soul' requiring some isolation

from the busy world of practical information exchanges. Poetry 'informs' us by eiicting, or drawing out, feelings, which can be imputed to (some)

'serious' music as well.  Thank you for asking this question!

STAN

On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 10:03 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com> wrote:

I did not dare to evaluate the positive connotations to poetry poetic rhetorically lanced.

I'd be honored to feel a sympathy from you. 

In fact, it is not that easy to sell a solution to a problem that the customer doesn't recognize he has. One may in such a situation digress into allegory and chiseled haiku. The customer needs an inner education, and needs to be seduced into restarting thinking by means of cortical complexes which he had last time coordinated at the age of 5 6 or 7 years.

Would you tell me, please, in such words as you choose, what I am trying to say? This would help me tremendously. I am longing for a conservation.

Karl 

Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu> schrieb am Do., 13. Mai 2021, 15:47:

Karl -- As a sometime/occasional poet, I find your statement (if not a joke) 'interesting'. Is 'poetic' derogatory because

poetic productions are often indirect, vague, ironic, nugatory?

STAN 

On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 7:57 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Stan,

Poetic is a derogatory term (in context information theory)?

Karl 

Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu> schrieb am Mi., 12. Mai 2021, 16:18:

Karl wrote:  What Joseph says is that the system of rational relations leaves something necessarily aside, which is not accessible by its methods. The background to rational thinking is of course irrational. There is something, besides, alongside, around the system created by rational thoughts, and how this relates to that what we can clearly understand is what Philosophy centres on. 

S: There is Poetic Thinking.

STAN

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 6:40 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com> wrote:

Comments on Joe Brenner: Information in Operation: Probability

Once again, Joseph’s train of thought is a textbook example of the truism, that Philosophy is the mother of all sciences, and that one can recognise (a part) of philosophic sentences as true, if their content is being observed in her daughters’ contextual framework, too. Those divinations within the realm, where there are unanswered questions, which result in empirical verification, are commonly understood to be true.

What Joseph says is that the system of rational relations leaves something necessarily aside, which is not accessible by its methods. The background to rational thinking is of course irrational. There is something, besides, alongside, around the system created by rational thoughts, and how this relates to that what we can clearly understand is what Philosophy centres on. Adorno criticised Wittgenstein’s refusal to deal with the inexact, saying that the job of a philosopher is to address that, what is unknown, not to describe the grammar of that, what is already known. Joseph speaks about that, what was hopelessly inexplicable in Wittgenstein’s time. At that time, cataloguing, systematising and regulating that what was known was a necessary step to consolidate and to serve as a basis for the next step.

The general observations by Joseph about the landscape of the unknown treat the subject in terms of probability and countability. His philosophic thoughts have already given birth to a daughter-science, of which the name is not yet decided, but many will recognise familiar features of the new-born.

Advancing from the basis laid down by Wittgenstein, knowledge gained from insights into the grammar and syntax of logical sentences has led the technical daughter to experiment with demonstrative examples of probability and countability. Results from the workshop support the design concepts from the creatives. In fact, the known and the unknown have to interact, as we continue living in a world that consists of foregrounds and backgrounds, which at times can be interchanged. The relation of the background to the foreground may remain a philosophical mystery forever, but systematically exchanging the background-foreground properties observed on an experimental population set free in its natural habitat shows that there are laws of interactions between the two. These touch on probability and countability. Seen from the inside, it is very hard to decide, which tools of prediction one uses when observing predictable periodic changes: are these the positions, the masses involved, their speed, their history or their personal properties? The property of being so many is one among many other determinants. If the background is axiomatic to the foreground, there is no information, as Joseph points out. Information is involved, if based on this <background/foreground>, one would expect a different <foreground/background>. It may appear a heroic undertaking of accounting to filter out the connections between background and foreground as such, but it helps immensely, if we have a conceptual picture of how two interdependent logical systems interact, irrespectively of how one names them. In Joe’s case, these are named Logic and Reality. Wittgenstein called them that, what we can and that we cannot speak about exactly. Our neurology suggests we see them as a contrast-generating dichotomy. Experiments with logical primitives show that the problem can be studied in great detail. 

Summarising: Information in Operation: Probability delineates concepts that are well supported by technical observations.

Am Mi., 12. Mai 2021 um 11:15 Uhr schrieb Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>:

Dear Marcin and Pedro,

Thank you for the reminder. For possible comments, I attach my one-page Abstract; the full paper, on information and probability, will be submitted to Mark Burgin’s Conference on Theoretical and Foundational Problems.

I welcome Pedro’s concept of re-opening the discussion of Natural Intelligence. This subject has come up in the recent work of our colleagues, Zhong Yixin, Shi Zhongzhi and Zhao Chuan on Intelligence Science. This topic is also mentioned as one for discussion in the Conference on the Philosophy of Information. My hope is that that it might attract, finally, some new work.

I look forward to a dialogue on these issues,

Best wishes,

Joseph 

  _____  

From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Marcin SCHROEDER
Sent: mercredi, 12 mai 2021 08:22
To: Pedro C. Marijuan
Cc: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Wake up call

Dear Pedro and FIS Friends,

Thank you Pedro for the reminder about the IS4SI Summit. If someone did not consider yet their participation in the Summit, please visit the website  <https://summit-2021.is4si.org/> https://summit-2021.is4si.org/. The deadline for submission of extended abstracts is June 15, 2021. Participation in the Summit is free from any conference fee. There will be multiple choices for the publication of papers presented at the Summit's eleven conferences. There is an option to present different papers at more than one conference. 

Once again, thank you Pedro for the "wake-up call".

Regards,

Marcin

Marcin J. Schroeder, Ph.D.

Specially Appointed Professor                                                                                

Global Learning Center                                                        

IEHE (Institute for Excellence in Higher Education)    (高度教養教育・学生支援機構)                            

Tohoku University                                                  (東北大学)                                                                                                

41 Kawauchi, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8576 JAPAN        (〒980-8576　仙台市青葉区川内41)                              

 <mailto:schroeder.marcin.e4 at tohoku.ac.jp> schroeder.marcin.e4 at tohoku.ac.jp                                   

Professor Emeritus

Akita International University, Akita Japan

 <mailto:mjs at aiu.ac.jp> mjs at gl.aiu.ac.jp          

Editor-in-Chief                                                                 President

Philosophies  (MDPI Basel Switzerland)                        International Society for the Study of Information  (IS4SI)                            

 <https://www.mdpi.com/journal/philosophies> https://www.mdpi.com/journal/philosophies              <http://is4si.org/about-is4si/organisation/board/> is4si.org/about-is4si/organisation/board/

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 4:41 AM Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> wrote:

Dear FISers,

You will remember in those ancient times of travels and hotels (so distant now!) the request in the front desk for a wake up call... we should be on time for the presentations or for the shuttle to the airport. 

In these strange times of ours, of unrelenting isolation, every month our stamina reserves are little by little depleted, at least for those not directly involved in the duties of academic life or institutional research. How a wake up call might be arranged for those of us at the brisk of depression?

In June 15th is the deadline for participating in the IS4SI 2021 conference. See https://summit-2021.is4si.org/

I think we should massively participate. Let us post our tentative abstracts in the list, as Howard did, and let us have preliminary discussions. 

Personally, I will send an abstract to one of the sessions (still undecided which one could be fitting) about

THE PARADIGM OF NATURAL INTELLIGENCE

It will be argued that intelligence is a universal phenomenon present in all forms of life. It requires a new form of relationship with the environment, implying not only openness to energy flows but to information flows as well. External information processing, coupled with internal information processing, may produce an adaptive life cycle that manifests (natural) intelligence, produces meaning, and realizes fitness value. Out from the basic prokaryotic conformation, the unit of natural intelligence, it may develop hierarchically, via multicellularity, and particularly with the evolution of nervous systems. Then, natural intelligence fully develops up to the point, in the human case, of exhibiting pieces of artificial intelligence that mimic some of the basic properties of the former. It will be finally argued that without a proper understanding of natural intelligence, the scientific foundations of artificial intelligence will be shaky--notwithstanding the technological grandeur it is effectively achieving. But unbridled, half-understood technologies are not a panacea for societies. Often the opposite.

Best regards to all!

--Pedro

-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
------------------------------------------------- 

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La Universidad Internacional de La Rioja (UNIR)
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