[Fis] [External Email] Re: Wake up call. Poetry and Non-Utility. Bisociation

Thu May 20 00:56:40 CEST 2021

no matter how you try to see something clearly, metaphor is your primary tool.  
and there's a reason metaphor works.  it reflects deep structures of the cosmos, patterns that reappear on level after level of emergence.  patters like attraction and repulsion.  
metaphor reflects universals.

for a book-length argument FOR the use of metaphor, see my The God Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates.
with warmth and oomph--howard

-----Original Message-----From: Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
To: 'Dai Griffiths' <dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com>; fis at listas.unizar.es
Sent: Wed, May 19, 2021 12:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: Wake up call. Poetry and Non-Utility. Bisociation

Dear Dai and All,    This brief note of Dai’s raises some extremely important philosophicalissues, as have other recent notes, about which I am sure we will both agreeand disagree. For example, I agree that seeing ‘connections’, insights andkeeping the mind flexible are all ‘good’ things, but I disagree with the valueascribed to metaphors. They may result in making it difficult to see things asthey are, and real art for me is about the latter, not the former. Seeing onething in terms of another is for me a description of Peircean signs, one thing ‘standing’for another, and standing for me means standing still.    My thanks to Dai for filling a gap in my knowledge; I was not awareof Koestler’s bisociation, mentally combining two things to form a third. This cancertainly be part of the creative process, without exhausting it.     In any case, poetry is suggestive for us students of information andinformation flows since it makes very real the different (recursive andentangled) levels at which things can be interpreted. Thus, in my opinion, itis not absolutely necessary, as suggested by Howard, that science be placed ata ‘higher’ level to insure the value of both.    Best wishes,    Joseph                         From:Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] OnBehalf Of Dai Griffiths
Sent: mercredi, 19 mai 2021 16:55
To: fis at listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] [ExternalEmail] Re: Wake up call. Poetry and Utility    Perhaps arather mundane view on this is that part of the importance of poetry, and theother arts, is to do with metaphor. Seeing one thing in terms of another is, Ithink, a good practice for keeping the mind flexible. It would be interestingto know what cognitive effects might result from doing cryptic crosswords everyday. Metaphorcan also lead to insight, as proposed by Bateson's 'pattern that connects', andalso by Koestler's concept of bisociation. Seeing more of these connections canonly help us. Best, Dai On 15/05/2021 10:56, Joseph Brenner wrote: 
Dear Karl and Stan,   Thank you for this truly transdisciplinary exchange. My suggestionis that the “restarting” of thinking that Karl describes in fact takes placenumerous times, as there are unfortunately many “restoppings” in life as well.     Also, however, if poetry can have the role that you both describe,is it just to say it is not useful? Perhaps its utility (and that of other art)in our mental Haushalt is muchgreater than it is usually given credit for.   Best, Joseph    On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 3:50 PM Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu> wrote: 
Karl -- I think that you have touched upon an interesting way tosuggest the meaning and effect of poetry. Since it is not concerned with presenting factualor useful information, we may well search for a raison d'etre ofpoetry.  It is, I think, a way of eliciting understandings that are notavailable by way of everyday language use, but which many of us hadsome more direct way of engaging when we were young  at certainages.  So poetry may be viewed as a technique for eliciting feelings byway of providing guidance through unusual imagery, which may be evokedverbally.  This supposes that the reader of poetry is seriously engaged --a condition of the 'soul' requiring some isolation from the busy worldof practical information exchanges. Poetry 'informs' us by eiicting, or drawingout, feelings, which can be imputed to (some) 'serious' musicas well.  Thank you for asking this question! STAN    On Thu, May 13, 2021at 10:03 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com> wrote: 
I did not dare toevaluate the positive connotations to poetry poetic rhetorically lanced. I'd be honored tofeel a sympathy from you.  In fact, it is notthat easy to sell a solution to a problem that the customer doesn't recognizehe has. One may in such a situation digress into allegory and chiseled haiku.The customer needs an inner education, and needs to be seduced into restartingthinking by means of cortical complexes which he had last time coordinated atthe age of 5 6 or 7 years. Would you tell me,please, in such words as you choose, what I am trying to say? This would helpme tremendously. I am longing for a conservation. Karl        Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu>schrieb am Do., 13. Mai 2021, 15:47: 
Karl -- As a sometime/occasional poet, Ifind your statement (if not a joke) 'interesting'. Is 'poetic' derogatorybecause poetic productions are often indirect,vague, ironic, nugatory? STAN     On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 7:57 AM KarlJavorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com> wrote: 
Hi Stan,    Poetic is a derogatory term (in context information theory)?    Karl     Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu> schrieb amMi., 12. Mai 2021, 16:18: 
Karl wrote:  What Joseph says is that the system of rational relations leavessomething necessarily aside, which is not accessible by its methods. Thebackground to rational thinking is of course irrational. There is something,besides, alongside, around the system created by rational thoughts, and howthis relates to that what we can clearly understand is what Philosophy centreson.  S: There is Poetic Thinking. STAN    On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 6:40 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>wrote: 
Comments on Joe Brenner:Information in Operation: Probability Once again, Joseph’strain of thought is a textbook example of the truism, that Philosophy is themother of all sciences, and that one can recognise (a part) of philosophicsentences as true, if their content is being observed in her daughters’contextual framework, too. Those divinations within the realm, where there areunanswered questions, which result in empirical verification, are commonlyunderstood to be true. What Joseph says is thatthe system of rational relations leaves something necessarily aside, which isnot accessible by its methods. The background to rational thinking is of courseirrational. There is something, besides, alongside, around the system createdby rational thoughts, and how this relates to that what we can clearlyunderstand is what Philosophy centres on. Adorno criticised Wittgenstein’srefusal to deal with the inexact, saying that the job of a philosopher is toaddress that, what is unknown, not to describe the grammar of that, what isalready known. Joseph speaks about that, what was hopelessly inexplicable inWittgenstein’s time. At that time, cataloguing, systematising and regulatingthat what was known was a necessary step to consolidate and to serve as a basisfor the next step. The general observationsby Joseph about the landscape of the unknown treat the subject in terms ofprobability and countability. His philosophic thoughts have already given birthto a daughter-science, of which the name is not yet decided, but many willrecognise familiar features of the new-born. Advancing from the basislaid down by Wittgenstein, knowledge gained from insights into the grammar andsyntax of logical sentences has led the technical daughter to experiment withdemonstrative examples of probability and countability. Results from theworkshop support the design concepts from the creatives. In fact, the known andthe unknown have to interact, as we continue living in a world that consists offoregrounds and backgrounds, which at times can be interchanged. The relationof the background to the foreground may remain a philosophical mystery forever,but systematically exchanging the background-foreground properties observed onan experimental population set free in its natural habitat shows that there arelaws of interactions between the two. These touch on probability andcountability. Seen from the inside, it is very hard to decide, which tools ofprediction one uses when observing predictable periodic changes: are these thepositions, the masses involved, their speed, their history or their personalproperties? The property of being so manyis one among many other determinants. If the background is axiomatic to theforeground, there is no information, as Joseph points out. Information isinvolved, if based on this<background/foreground>, one would expect a different <foreground/background>. Itmay appear a heroic undertaking of accounting to filter out the connectionsbetween background and foreground as such, butit helps immensely, if we have a conceptual picture of how two interdependentlogical systems interact, irrespectively of how one names them. In Joe’s case,these are named Logic and Reality. Wittgenstein called them that, what we canand that we cannot speak about exactly. Our neurology suggests we see them as acontrast-generating dichotomy. Experiments with logical primitives show thatthe problem can be studied in great detail.  Summarising:Information in Operation: Probability delineates concepts that are wellsupported by technical observations.    Am Mi., 12. Mai 2021 um 11:15 Uhr schrieb Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>: 
DearMarcin and Pedro,   Thankyou for the reminder. For possible comments, I attach my one-page Abstract; thefull paper, on information and probability, will be submitted to Mark Burgin’sConference on Theoretical and Foundational Problems.   Iwelcome Pedro’s concept of re-opening the discussion of Natural Intelligence.This subject has come up in the recent work of our colleagues, Zhong Yixin, ShiZhongzhi and Zhao Chuan on Intelligence Science. This topic is also mentionedas one for discussion in the Conference on the Philosophy of Information. Myhope is that that it might attract, finally, some new work.   Ilook forward to a dialogue on these issues,   Bestwishes,   Joseph       From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Marcin SCHROEDER
Sent: mercredi, 12 mai 2021 08:22
To: Pedro C. Marijuan
Cc: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Wake up call   DearPedro and FIS Friends,
  Thankyou Pedro for the reminder about the IS4SI Summit. If someone did notconsider yet their participation in the Summit, please visit thewebsite https://summit-2021.is4si.org/.The deadline for submission of extendedabstracts is June 15, 2021. Participation in the Summit is free fromany conference fee. There will be multiple choices for the publication ofpapers presented at the Summit's eleven conferences. There is an option topresent different papers at more than one conference.  Onceagain, thank you Pedro for the "wake-up call". Regards, Marcin       MarcinJ. Schroeder, Ph.D. SpeciallyAppointed Professor                                                                              GlobalLearning Center                                                      IEHE(Institute for Excellence in Higher Education)    (高度教養教育・学生支援機構)                            TohokuUniversity                                                (東北大学)                                                                                             41Kawauchi, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8576 JAPAN        (〒980-8576　仙台市青葉区川内41)                             schroeder.marcin.e4 at tohoku.ac.jp                                  ProfessorEmeritus AkitaInternational University, Akita Japan mjs at gl.aiu.ac.jp                                                                                                  Editor-in-Chief                                                              President Philosophies  (MDPI Basel Switzerland)                      International Society for the Study of Information  (IS4SI)                           https://www.mdpi.com/journal/philosophies            is4si.org/about-is4si/organisation/board/        On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 4:41 AM Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>wrote: 
DearFISers, You willremember in those ancient times of travels and hotels (so distant now!) therequest in the front desk for a wake up call... we should be on time for thepresentations or for the shuttle to the airport.  In thesestrange times of ours, of unrelenting isolation, every month our staminareserves are little by little depleted, at least for those not directly involvedin the duties of academic life or institutional research. How a wake up callmight be arranged for those of us at the brisk of depression? In June15th is the deadline for participating in the IS4SI 2021 conference. See https://summit-2021.is4si.org/ I think we should massively participate.Let us post our tentative abstracts in the list, as Howard did, and let us havepreliminary discussions.  Personally,I will send an abstract to one of the sessions (still undecided which one couldbe fitting) about THEPARADIGM OF NATURAL INTELLIGENCE It willbe argued that intelligence is a universal phenomenon present in all forms oflife. It requires a new form of relationship with the environment, implying notonly openness to energy flows but to information flows as well. Externalinformation processing, coupled with internal information processing, mayproduce an adaptive life cycle that manifests (natural) intelligence, producesmeaning, and realizes fitness value. Out from the basic prokaryoticconformation, the unit of natural intelligence, it may develop hierarchically,via multicellularity, and particularly with the evolution of nervous systems.Then, natural intelligence fully develops up to the point, in the human case,of exhibiting pieces of artificial intelligence that mimic some of the basicproperties of the former. It will be finally argued that without a properunderstanding of natural intelligence, the scientific foundations of artificialintelligence will be shaky--notwithstanding the technological grandeur it iseffectively achieving. But unbridled, half-understood technologies are not apanacea for societies. Often the opposite. Bestregards to all! --Pedro -- -------------------------------------------------Pedro C. MarijuánGrupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/-------------------------------------------------    
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 -- -----------------------------------------  Professor David (Dai) Griffiths  Researcher at the Instituto de Investigación, Innovación y Tecnología Educativas (iTED)La Universidad Internacional de La Rioja (UNIR)https://www.unir.net/universidad-online/investigacion/unir-ited/   SKYPE: daigriffiths  Phones (please don't leave voice mail)   Spanish Mobile: + 34 687 955912  email   david.griffiths at unir.net   dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com _______________________________________________
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__________________________Howard BloomHowardbloom.netwww.howardbloom.institutetrailer for BRIC-TV's 66-minute film, The Grand Unified Theory of Howard Bloom,  https://youtu.be/rGkOkChazUQ Best Picture, Science Design Film Festival. Best Documentary Feature, Not Film Festival, Italy. Now available  on Apple TV, Amazon, Google Play, Microsoft, Vimeo, Vudu, and Fandango.
Author of: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker),The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic),  The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild! Wonderful!” Timothy Leary),The Mohammed Code (“A terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media), andEinstein, Michael Jackson & Me: a Search  for Soul in the Power Pits of Rock & Roll ("Amazing. The writing is revelatory." Freddy DeMann, manager of Michael Jackson and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York Weekly Times.A Quartz Magazine ProFormer Visiting Scholar, Graduate Psychology Department, New York University, Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Current Kepler Space Institute Senior Scholar.Founder: International Paleopsychology Project. Founder, Space Development Steering Committee.  Member Of Board Of Governors, National Space Society. Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society. Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project.
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