[Fis] [External Email] Re: Wake up call. Poetry and Utility
Dai Griffiths
dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com
Wed May 19 16:54:50 CEST 2021
Perhaps a rather mundane view on this is that part of the importance of
poetry, and the other arts, is to do with metaphor. Seeing one thing in
terms of another is, I think, a good practice for keeping the mind
flexible. It would be interesting to know what cognitive effects might
result from doing cryptic crosswords every day.
Metaphor can also lead to insight, as proposed by Bateson's 'pattern
that connects', and also by Koestler's concept of bisociation. Seeing
more of these connections can only help us.
Best,
Dai
On 15/05/2021 10:56, Joseph Brenner wrote:
>
> Dear Karl and Stan,
>
> Thank you for this truly transdisciplinary exchange. My suggestion is
> that the “restarting” of thinking that Karl describes in fact takes
> place numerous times, as there are unfortunately many “restoppings” in
> life as well.
>
> Also, however, if poetry can have the role that you both describe, is
> it just to say it is not useful? Perhaps its utility (and that of
> other art) in our mental /Haushalt/ is much greater than it is usually
> given credit for.
>
> Best,
>
> Joseph
>
> On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 3:50 PM Stanley N Salthe
> <ssalthe at binghamton.edu <mailto:ssalthe at binghamton.edu>> wrote:
>
> Karl -- I think that you have touched upon an interesting way to
> suggest the meaning and effect of poetry. Since it is not
> concerned with
>
> presenting factual or useful information, we may well search for a
> raison d'etre of poetry. It is, I think, a way of eliciting
> understandings
>
> that are not available by way of everyday language use, but which
> many of us had some more direct way of engaging when we were young
>
> at certain ages. So poetry may be viewed as a technique for
> eliciting feelings by way of providing guidance through unusual
> imagery, which
>
> may be evoked verbally. This supposes that the reader of poetry
> is seriously engaged -- a condition of the 'soul' requiring some
> isolation
>
> from the busy world of practical information exchanges. Poetry
> 'informs' us by eiicting, or drawing out, feelings, which can be
> imputed to (some)
>
> 'serious' music as well. Thank you for asking this question!
>
> STAN
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 10:03 AM Karl Javorszky
> <karl.javorszky at gmail.com <mailto:karl.javorszky at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I did not dare to evaluate the positive connotations to poetry
> poetic rhetorically lanced.
>
> I'd be honored to feel a sympathy from you.
>
> In fact, it is not that easy to sell a solution to a problem
> that the customer doesn't recognize he has. One may in such a
> situation digress into allegory and chiseled haiku. The
> customer needs an inner education, and needs to be seduced
> into restarting thinking by means of cortical complexes which
> he had last time coordinated at the age of 5 6 or 7 years.
>
> Would you tell me, please, in such words as you choose, what I
> am trying to say? This would help me tremendously. I am
> longing for a conservation.
>
> Karl
>
> Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu
> <mailto:ssalthe at binghamton.edu>> schrieb am Do., 13. Mai 2021,
> 15:47:
>
> Karl -- As a sometime/occasional poet, I find your
> statement (if not a joke) 'interesting'. Is 'poetic'
> derogatory because
>
> poetic productions are often indirect, vague, ironic,
> nugatory?
>
> STAN
>
> On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 7:57 AM Karl Javorszky
> <karl.javorszky at gmail.com
> <mailto:karl.javorszky at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Stan,
>
> Poetic is a derogatory term (in context information
> theory)?
>
> Karl
>
> Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu
> <mailto:ssalthe at binghamton.edu>> schrieb am Mi., 12.
> Mai 2021, 16:18:
>
> Karl wrote: What Joseph says is that the system of
> rational relations leaves something necessarily
> aside, which is not accessible by its methods. The
> background to rational thinking is of course
> irrational. There is something, besides,
> alongside, around the system created by rational
> thoughts, and how this relates to that what we can
> clearly understand is what Philosophy centres on.
>
> S: There is Poetic Thinking.
>
> STAN
>
> On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 6:40 AM Karl Javorszky
> <karl.javorszky at gmail.com
> <mailto:karl.javorszky at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Comments on Joe Brenner: Information in
> Operation: Probability
>
> Once again, Joseph’s train of thought is a
> textbook example of the truism, that
> Philosophy is the mother of all sciences, and
> that one can recognise (a part) of philosophic
> sentences as true, if their content is being
> observed in her daughters’ contextual
> framework, too. Those divinations within the
> realm, where there are unanswered questions,
> which result in empirical verification, are
> commonly understood to be true.
>
> What Joseph says is that the system of
> rational relations leaves something
> necessarily aside, which is not accessible by
> its methods. The background to rational
> thinking is of course irrational. There is
> something, besides, alongside, around the
> system created by rational thoughts, and how
> this relates to that what we can clearly
> understand is what Philosophy centres on.
> Adorno criticised Wittgenstein’s refusal to
> deal with the inexact, saying that the job of
> a philosopher is to address that, what is
> unknown, not to describe the grammar of that,
> what is already known. Joseph speaks about
> that, what was hopelessly inexplicable in
> Wittgenstein’s time. At that time,
> cataloguing, systematising and regulating that
> what was known was a necessary step to
> consolidate and to serve as a basis for the
> next step.
>
> The general observations by Joseph about the
> landscape of the unknown treat the subject in
> terms of probability and countability. His
> philosophic thoughts have already given birth
> to a daughter-science, of which the name is
> not yet decided, but many will recognise
> familiar features of the new-born.
>
> Advancing from the basis laid down by
> Wittgenstein, knowledge gained from insights
> into the grammar and syntax of logical
> sentences has led the technical daughter to
> experiment with demonstrative examples of
> probability and countability. Results from the
> workshop support the design concepts from the
> creatives. In fact, the known and the unknown
> have to interact, as we continue living in a
> world that consists of foregrounds and
> backgrounds, which at times can be
> interchanged. The relation of the background
> to the foreground may remain a philosophical
> mystery forever, but systematically exchanging
> the background-foreground properties observed
> on an experimental population set free in its
> natural habitat shows that there are laws of
> interactions between the two. These touch on
> probability and countability. Seen from the
> inside, it is very hard to decide, which tools
> of prediction one uses when observing
> predictable periodic changes: are these the
> positions, the masses involved, their speed,
> their history or their personal properties?
> The property of being /so many/ is one among
> many other determinants. If the background is
> axiomatic to the foreground, there is no
> information, as Joseph points out. Information
> is involved, if /based on this
> <background/foreground>, /one would expect
> a/different <foreground/background>. /It may
> appear a heroic undertaking of accounting to
> filter out the connections between background
> and foreground /as such, /but it helps
> immensely, if we have a conceptual picture of
> how two interdependent logical systems
> interact, irrespectively of how one names
> them. In Joe’s case, these are named Logic and
> Reality. Wittgenstein called them that, what
> we can and that we cannot speak about exactly.
> Our neurology suggests we see them as a
> contrast-generating dichotomy. Experiments
> with logical primitives show that the problem
> can be studied in great detail.
>
> *Summarising:* Information in Operation:
> Probability delineates concepts that are well
> supported by technical observations.
>
> Am Mi., 12. Mai 2021 um 11:15 Uhr schrieb
> Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
> <mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>>:
>
> Dear Marcin and Pedro,
>
> Thank you for the reminder. For possible
> comments, I attach my one-page Abstract;
> the full paper, on information and
> probability, will be submitted to Mark
> Burgin’s Conference on Theoretical and
> Foundational Problems.
>
> I welcome Pedro’s concept of re-opening
> the discussion of Natural Intelligence.
> This subject has come up in the recent
> work of our colleagues, Zhong Yixin, Shi
> Zhongzhi and Zhao Chuan on Intelligence
> Science. This topic is also mentioned as
> one for discussion in the Conference on
> the Philosophy of Information. My hope is
> that that it might attract, finally, some
> new work.
>
> I look forward to a dialogue on these issues,
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Joseph
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Fis
> [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es
> <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>] *On
> Behalf Of *Marcin SCHROEDER
> *Sent:* mercredi, 12 mai 2021 08:22
> *To:* Pedro C. Marijuan
> *Cc:* fis
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Wake up call
>
> Dear Pedro and FIS Friends,
>
> Thank you Pedro for the reminder about the
> IS4SI Summit. If someone did not consider
> yet their participation in the Summit,
> please visit the website
> https://summit-2021.is4si.org/
> <https://summit-2021.is4si.org/>. *The
> deadline for submission of extended
> abstracts is June 15, 2021.* Participation
> in the Summit is free from any conference
> fee. There will be multiple choices for
> the publication of papers presented at the
> Summit's eleven conferences. There is an
> option to present different papers at more
> than one conference.
>
> Once again, thank you Pedro for the
> "wake-up call".
>
> Regards,
>
> Marcin
>
> Marcin J. Schroeder, Ph.D.
>
> Specially Appointed Professor
>
> Global Learning Center
>
> IEHE (Institute for Excellence in Higher
> Education) (高度教養教育・学生支援機構)
>
> Tohoku University (東北大学)
>
> 41 Kawauchi, Aoba-ku, Sendai 980-8576
> JAPAN (〒980-8576 仙台市青葉区川内41)
>
> schroeder.marcin.e4 at tohoku.ac.jp
> <mailto:schroeder.marcin.e4 at tohoku.ac.jp>
>
> Professor Emeritus
>
> Akita International University, Akita Japan
>
> mjs at gl.aiu.ac.jp <mailto:mjs at aiu.ac.jp>
>
> Editor-in-Chief President
>
> /Philosophies / (MDPI Basel Switzerland)
> International Society for the Study of
> Information (IS4SI)
>
> https://www.mdpi.com/journal/philosophies
> <https://www.mdpi.com/journal/philosophies>
> is4si.org/about-is4si/organisation/board/
> <http://is4si.org/about-is4si/organisation/board/>
>
> On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 4:41 AM Pedro C.
> Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
> <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>> wrote:
>
> Dear FISers,
>
> You will remember in those ancient
> times of travels and hotels (so
> distant now!) the request in the front
> desk for a wake up call... we should
> be on time for the presentations or
> for the shuttle to the airport.
>
> In these strange times of ours, of
> unrelenting isolation, every month our
> stamina reserves are little by little
> depleted, at least for those not
> directly involved in the duties of
> academic life or institutional
> research. How a wake up call might be
> arranged for those of us at the brisk
> of depression?
>
> In June 15th is the deadline for
> participating in the IS4SI 2021
> conference. See
> https://summit-2021.is4si.org/
> <https://summit-2021.is4si.org/>
>
> _I think we should massively
> participate._ Let us post our
> tentative abstracts in the list, as
> Howard did, and let us have
> preliminary discussions.
>
> Personally, I will send an abstract to
> one of the sessions (still undecided
> which one could be fitting) about
>
> THE PARADIGM OF NATURAL INTELLIGENCE
>
> It will be argued that intelligence is
> a universal phenomenon present in all
> forms of life. It requires a new form
> of relationship with the environment,
> implying not only openness to energy
> flows but to information flows as
> well. External information processing,
> coupled with internal information
> processing, may produce an adaptive
> life cycle that manifests (natural)
> intelligence, produces meaning, and
> realizes fitness value. Out from the
> basic prokaryotic conformation, the
> unit of natural intelligence, it may
> develop hierarchically, via
> multicellularity, and particularly
> with the evolution of nervous systems.
> Then, natural intelligence fully
> develops up to the point, in the human
> case, of exhibiting pieces of
> artificial intelligence that mimic
> some of the basic properties of the
> former. It will be finally argued that
> without a proper understanding of
> natural intelligence, the scientific
> foundations of artificial intelligence
> will be shaky--notwithstanding the
> technological grandeur it is
> effectively achieving. But unbridled,
> half-understood technologies are not a
> panacea for societies. Often the opposite.
>
> Best regards to all!
>
> --Pedro
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Pedro C. Marijuán
>
> Grupo de Bioinformación /
> Bioinformation Group
>
> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
> <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> <http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
-----------------------------------------
Professor David (Dai) Griffiths
Researcher at the Instituto de Investigación, Innovación y Tecnología Educativas (iTED)
La Universidad Internacional de La Rioja (UNIR)
https://www.unir.net/universidad-online/investigacion/unir-ited/
SKYPE: daigriffiths
Phones (please don't leave voice mail)
Spanish Mobile: + 34 687 955912
email
david.griffiths at unir.net
dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com
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