[Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles. Information as Process

Sat Sep 19 07:35:06 CEST 2020

Caro Loet e Cari Tutti,
ha ragione Loet: in-form-azione è un'azione che tende a dare(o fare
prendere) forma a qualcuno o qualcosa. Il significato di questo qualcosa o
qualcuno
è un'oper-azione o processo di carattere semiotico, cioè, arbitrario,
convenzionale e sociale, La significazione precede l'informazione.
L'informazione può dare luogo alla com-unicazione quando un s-codice si
sovrappone alla fonte equiprobabile del sistema di partenza per
dominarla comunicativamente. Tuttavia non è il valore statistico-matematico
informazione che richiede questo elemento di ordine, ma la possibilità di
trasmetterla. In tal caso non ha senso parlare di canale di informazione,
quanto di coincidenza o differenza dei codici della fonte trasmittente e
del destinatario ricevente (Rizzo F., "Valore e valutazioni", FrancoAngeli,
Milano, 1999, pp. 635-638).

Il giorno sab 19 set 2020 alle ore 06:23 Loet Leydesdorff <
loet en leydesdorff.net> ha scritto:

> Dear Joseph:
>
>
> One could also use "informing" as a verb.
>
> Let me take the liberty to quote as follows:
>
> Varela (1979, at p. 266) argued for defining “information” in accordance
> with the semantic root of the word of “in-formare.” In a similar vein, the
> anthropologist Bateson proposed defining information as “a difference which
> makes a difference” (Bateson, 1972, at p. 315; cf. MacKay, 1969). However,
> a difference may make a difference for one system of reference but not, or
> differently, for another. In other words, information would then no longer
> be defined analytically, but in terms of what information means for a
> receiving system. In second-order systems theory, this receiving system has
> been denoted as an “observer” (e.g., Maturana, 1978; Von Foerster, 1982).
>
> [...] When the sending and receiving systems are considered as the
> systems of reference and information is defined as “a difference which
> makes a difference” for them, the definitions of information, meaning, and
> discursive knowledge become entangled. The more abstract perspective of
> information theory on the number of options and the measurement of realized
> ones in terms of (e.g., bits of) information tends to be lost.
>
>  In a recent book, César Hidalgo (2015, at p. 165), for example, has
> defined “information” with reference “to the order embodied in codified
> sequences, such as those found in music or DNA, while *knowledge and
> knowhow* refer to the ability of a system to process information.”
> However, codified knowledge can be abstract and—like music—does not have to
> be “embodied” (e.g., Cowan, David, & Foray, 2000). Beyond Hidalgo’s
> position, the philosopher Luciano Floridi (2010, p. 21) proposed “a general
> definition of information” according to which “the well-formed data are
> *meaningful*” (italics of the author). The sociologist Niklas Luhmann
> (1995, p. 67) posits that “all information has meaning.” In his opinion,
> information should therefore be considered as a selection mechanism. Kauffman
> *et al*. (2008, at p. 28) added to the confusion by defining information
> as “natural selection.”  (at p. 1182)
>
> Best,
> Loet
>
> Leydesdorff, L., Johnson, M., & Ivanova, I. (2018). Toward a Calculus of
> Redundancy: Signification, Codification, and Anticipation in Cultural
> Evolution. * Journal of the Association for Information Science and
> Technology, 69 * (10), 1181-1192. doi: 10.1002/asi.24052, at p. 1182.
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Joseph Brenner" <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>
> To: "Krassimir Markov" <markov en foibg.com>
> Cc: "fis" <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> Sent: 9/18/2020 10:19:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles. Information as Process
>
> Dear Pedro, Dear Krassimir,
>
> For me, the problem is clearly a result of using a common noun,
> information, to describe a complex process rather than a participle form –
> informationing. Then, “information IS a distinction” should be replaced by
> “information (2) is produced in MAKING a distinction on an adjacent
> difference = information (1). Then, of course the 1st principle is
> recursive, but correctly so!
>
> Best,
>
> Joseph
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Krassimir
> Markov
> *Sent:* vendredi, 18 septembre 2020 21:40
> *To:* FIS
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles
>
>
>
> Dear Pedro,
>
>
>
> I still not agree with the first principle.
> In this form it is recursive!
>
> Information needs itself to became information, because difference could
> not be distinguished without information.
> In this form, the first principle sound like this:
>
>
>
> Information is distinction of information !
>
> Sorry!
>
>
>
> Friendly greetings
>
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2020 9:01 PM
>
> *To:* 'fis' <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles
>
>
>
> Dear All,
> Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop you mention
> about distinction, you are right, but this is a very characteristic of life
> (see that Maturana and Varela already said something pretty similar in
> their Tree of Knowledge). In the other biological principles that follow
> (below)  I try to clarify that notion in several directions, particularly
> concerning signaling systems, a concept which was completely ignored until
> well in the 1990s. Your second comment may be partially responded looking
> at those further principles dealing with the symbolic communication via
> language and the social narratives, not far from what you have pointed.
> Thus I include the whole principles herein.
>
> 1. Information is distinction on an *adjacent *difference.
>
> 2. Information processes consist in organized action upon differences
> collected onto structures, patterns, sequences, messages, or flows.
>
> 3. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
> process –the life cycle– anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the
> accompanying energy flows.
>
> 4. Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& intelligence)
> emerge via signaling systems of living cells, fully developed in the
> action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.
>
> 5. Information/communication exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie
> the complexity of biological organization at all scales.
>
> 6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication
> exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core of human "social nature."
>
> 7. Human information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by
> following the "knowledge instinct", further enhanced and delimited by
> collectively applying rigorous methodologies.
>
> 8. Human cognitive limitations are partially overcome via "knowledge
> ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines socially in a
> continuous actualization that involves "creative destruction" of theories,
> practices, and disciplines.
>
> 9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”,
> tailored to capture collective attention and memory, and essential for the
> cohesion of social, political, and economic structures.
>
> 10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on how information
> and knowledge surround individual lives, with profound consequences for
> scientific-philosophical practice and for social governance.
>
>
>
> Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I quite
> agree with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with living beings,
> but have some trouble with "constraints" when generally applied to
> biological cognition. I think they may be more useful in other fields
> (originated in kinematics, they become more and more volatile as used in
> Dynamic Systems Theory, and similarly weakened when going from AI to
> biological cognition). For instance,  given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized
> in mixed clusters of fiendish complexity, how do you establish meaningful
> constraints? Or can even attribute separate "functions"? You may see in DOI:
> 10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002
> <https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002?_sg%5B0%5D=nH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w>
> the very dimensions of this ontology problem.
>
> <https://www.researchgate.net/deref/http%3A%2F%2Fdx.doi.org%2F10.1016%2Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002?_sg%5B0%5D=nH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w>
>
> Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and whether
> viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in natural sciences is
> "explaining" rather than defining. And fortunately the advancement in our
> explanations of life in last decades has been fantastic. Life can now be
> characterized in every basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a
> precise definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential
> characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones. Empirically,
> the point is that information appears to be so ingrained in the molecular
> organization of life that scores of new bio-disciplines have been recently
> launched around it: bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the
> "omic" fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics could be included too,
> but Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA meaning via the
> genetic code, rather than exploring the "signals" abduced from the
> environment and "distinctionally worked out and transcribed in genes--from
> which ultimately "meaning" emerges. About viruses concretely, they have
> been essential in the origins of eukaryotic complexity and in the dynamic
> balance of marine and terrestrial ecosystems... irrespective on how we
> consider their degree of "aliveness". And finally "non comment" about some
> (baiting?) expressions in your previous reply.
>
> I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next occasion!
>
> Best--Pedro
>
> PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the international
> business week (from Monday to Sunday included).
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Pedro C. Marijuán
>
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>
>
>
> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>
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>
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