[Fis] FW: black hole and information. Probabilities in non-quantum and quantum systems
Joseph Brenner
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Tue Oct 13 10:28:57 CEST 2020
Dear All,
I forward this message of Krassimir to maintain the momentum of the discussion, although I disagree with it. It would be correct ONLY if probabilities had to be defined in epistemic terms (statistical or logical, my question stands).
In my view, probabilities are closely related to potentialities (trends, propensities) which are real properties of real physical processes. Information is embedded in such potentialities and probabilities, and it changes as they change.
OF COURSE humans are required, but they are also required to say that gravity is gravity, that anything physical is physical. We thus perceive and interpret change as ‘time’.
OF COURSE, Shannon’s probability and information approaches are incomplete, but as Loet continues to show, they are capable of being extended, and there are also other ways to do this, for example by going to an ontological (real, energetic) model.
The question of whether quantum theory is useful for defining information is of a different kind, since it refers to a non-thermodynamic domain, and information for me refers ONLY to thermodynamic processes. This is why I asked Louis my question in the way I did.
I would be very grateful for any comments that suggest that my point of view might be even partially correct.
Thank you and best wishes,
Joseph
P.S. The idea that information is lost in cosmological black holes is consistent with the above. Humans cannot approach a black hole (“to see what it’s like”) any more than they can the nucleus of an atom.
_____
From: Krassimir Markov [mailto:markov at foibg.com]
Sent: lundi, 12 octobre 2020 20:15
To: Joseph Brenner; 'Louis Kauffman'
Cc: yxs at pku.edu.cn
Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information. Probabilities
Dear Joseph,
I have just answered to Louis.
Below I duplicate the answer.
Dear Louis,
The main problem is that probability is created by humans and only humans can compute probabilities!
There are no probabilities in the reality.
It is a human model for evaluation of what may happen.
Because of this, both Probability theory and Quantum Theory are not good for defining information.
Of course, the probability paradigm is originated by Shannon and its theory for signals.
But during the time, it was seen that it is a dead end.
Probabilities are not physical and could not be assumed as physical information.
They are mental models!
Friendly greetings
Krassimir
PS: I am writing “off line” because of FIS limits.
From: Joseph <mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> Brenner
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:55 PM
To: 'Louis Kauffman' <mailto:loukau at gmail.com> ; 'Krassimir Markov' <mailto:markov at foibg.com>
Cc: 'FIS' <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> ; yxs at pku.edu.cn
Subject: RE: [Fis] black hole and information. Probabilities
Dear Lou,
I agree with your definition of physical information as capturing a major aspect of it. To help in understanding, though, could you please indicate if the probabilities in your physical states are statistical or logical? The same question applies to quantum theory: is the generalized probability here statistical or logical? Krassimir’s note clearly refers to non-quantum interactions. Will it turn out that the probabilities in the macroscopic and quantum worlds will be of different types?
An eager student,
Joseph
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From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Louis Kauffman
Sent: lundi, 12 octobre 2020 18:21
To: Krassimir Markov
Cc: FIS; yxs at pku.edu.cn
Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information
Dear Krassimir,
A physical state is represented by a wave function which can be construed as a vector |z>= (z1,z2,…) in an infinite dimensional space such that ||z||^2 = Sum_{i}(|z_i|^2) converges to 1.
Measuring z produces one of the basis vectors |e_i> = (0,0,…,1,0,0,0…) (where 1 is in the ith place) with probability |z_{i}|^2. (More generally, one has a Hilbert space and and integral rather than a summation.)
In a specific application the basis vectors correspond to actual possibilities of measurement by some devices (e.g. the positions when an electron could hit a screen).
The information in |z> is this probability distribution coupled with the interpretations of the measurements. Under physical processes that are not measurements “the information is
preserved” in the sense that ||z||^2 is left unchanged by those (unitary) processes. Quantum Theory is a generalized probability theory in this sense.
In my understanding, the above is what is meant by “physical information”.
Best,
Lou Kauffman
On Oct 11, 2020, at 9:05 PM, Krassimir Markov <markov at foibg.com> wrote:
Dear Xueshan,
Thank you for your remarks.
What is methodical error in physics is that the different physical interactions like gravitation are assumed as information.
Can one describe what kind of information "Comet A can transmits to comet B".
Only physical, chemical or mechanical interactions may exists in the not living nature.
Biological, psychological and sociological interactions are specific only for living creatures.
"Does the moon exist when no one sees it?"
Yes, it exists, but it doesn't know anything about itself as well as it is not recognized as an object by other objects.
The same is valid for all objects in the nature.
Finally, I could not understand what means“the black hole information is physical”.
Please, can you describe the “physical information”.
Is it the same as the reflection i.e. some structural or functional changes after physical, chemical or mechanical interactions?
Friendly greetings
Krassimir
From: <mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn> Xueshan Yan
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 4:13 AM
To: <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> FIS
Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information
Dear Krassimir,
Very sorry for my late reply.
1. Yes, your statement "The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but not to the Black hole." is more precise than my "This year's Nobel Prize in physics goes to black hole research".
2. "Without observer there is no black hole entropy, there is no information." Inadvertently, you have raised a quantum mechanical question of information. If we can remember, Einstein and Bohr have a long debate that has an essential impact on quantum mechanics. That is "Does the moon exist when no one sees it?" If there isn’t any human observer, does "black hole entropy or information" exist? I don't know.
3. "Comet A can transmits information to comet B", this information about the behavior of the two comets greatly enriches our understanding of astrophysics. Here, the first information is physical and the second is human. Therefore, in my immature view, your "Consciousness is needed to reflect reality and to assume some reflections as information." is a human informatics problem, while the black hole information is physical.
Karl's prediction is a great encouragement to us and will come true soon, let's be ready to accept the prize next year or later.
Best wishes,
Xueshan
From: <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es < <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of Krassimir Markov
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 10:18 PM
To: <mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn> yxs at pku.edu.cn; FIS Group < <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information
Dear Xueshan,
I have only one remark.
The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but not to the Black hole and not to any other object in the Cosmos!
Without observer there is no Black hole entropy, there is no information.
So, the consciousness is needed to reflect reality and to assume some reflections as information.
Friendly greetings
Krassimir
From: <mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn> Xueshan Yan
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2020 3:37 PM
To: <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> FIS Group
Subject: [Fis] black hole and information
Dear colleagues，
This year's Nobel Prize in physics goes to black hole research today. When the curvature of space-time of a celestial body is so large that even light cannot escape from its event horizon, we call it a black hole. I. Once a black hole is formed, except for mass, angular momentum, and electric charge, all the previous material properties as objects disappear; II. The horizon area of the black hole is equal to its entropy (entropy equals negative information). These two issues form a close relationship between the research of black hole and information. The follow-up effect of this year's Nobel Prize in physics may lead to further thinking on the information in the future by astrophysicists, and lay a reverie foundation for the informational interpretation of matter several years later.
Best wishes and health,
Xueshan
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