[Fis] The 10 Principles

Tue Oct 13 08:43:25 CEST 2020

Dear Bruno,

It is difficult to follow:

>We have to distinguish the level of the occurrence, but mechanical 
>entities cannot draw a clear line between “historicistic” and the 
>possible first person aspect relative to an evolutionary dynamic.
Yes.
>
>With mechanism, the very emergence of the physical laws are explained 
>through a first person plural historicity, some one. It is were the 
>many-histories internal interpretation of arithmetic by itself is 
>filtered into a many histories account of the physical laws, like in 
>Feynman path integral, but also like in the many-histories 
>interpretation/formulation of quantum mechanics (Omnes, Griffith, 
>Hartle).
Do you mean with "many histories" discursive?
The system of reference changes from "observer" to a discourse?

I agree that this makes concepts like "Shannon information" 
inter-objective.  They are no longer based on observations of an 
observer. It follows that there are two kinds of meaning:: subjective 
and inter-subjective/communicative. Information (uncertainty) can be 
coupled to variable degrees to each of them. One can have more or less 
meaningful information.

Best,
Loet
>
>The universal numbers are the one who proceed the “Shannon information” 
>into possible meaning eventually structured physically into quantum 
>information when they take into account that they “belong” to an 
>infinity of computation, below their substitution level.
>
>I think that the universal digital machine or universal number provides 
>the good generalisation of the “human” in the search of the relation 
>between the first and third person views. A universal machine + 
>induction axioms supports already an admirable person with an internal 
>conflict between liberty (universality) and security (totality). It 
>helps to understand why we have 2 brains, and perhaps even why 
>democracy is important.
>
>Best,
>
>Bruno
>
>(Sorry for being late and not always present. I am a bit overwhelmed by 
>my job. Covid-19 easily doubles the tasks when teaching. I bought also 
>the two last volumes of the complete writings of Gödel, which occupies 
>my mind… Here is just my little grain of salt).
>
>
>>
>>Best,
>>Loet.
>>>
>>>Best greetings
>>>--Pedro
>>>
>>>
>>>El 25/09/2020 a las 13:46, Christophe Menant escribió:
>>>>Dear Pedro,
>>>>It is true that using constraints relative to 3000 genes would bring 
>>>>in a level of complexity  difficult to manage. But the usage of the 
>>>>Meaning Genartaor System is with higher level entities where the 
>>>>constraints are of a generic type, like “Stay alive” and “Look for 
>>>>happiness”.  By the way, I’m not alone on that perspective. See 
>>>>https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent 
>>>><https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-01198-7_6#aboutcontent> 
>>>>where different type of “control constraints” are introduced at 
>>>>basic life level, associated to “meaningful interpretation” and 
>>>>“significances”. Also, the  concept of constraint satisfaction as an 
>>>>entry point to cognition looks as accepted by the community (“a 
>>>>system is cognitive if and only if sensory inputs serve to trigger 
>>>>actions in a specific way, so as to satisfy a viability constraint” 
>>>>[Bourgine, Stewart 2004]).  So I don’t see very well why there is a 
>>>>reluctance to use a system approach on meaning generation for 
>>>>constraint satisfaction. What would be your position on that point?
>>>>An advantage of the system approach is to allow the modeling of 
>>>>meaning generation in artificial agents with derived constraints. 
>>>>Meaning generation in living entities and in AAs can then be 
>>>>compared with the same tool. This highlights some concerns relative 
>>>>to artificial life and artificial intelligence, with ethical 
>>>>components (https://philpapers.org/archive/MENTTC-2.pdf ).
>>>>On that subject I do not see very well how the 10 principles are 
>>>>linked to artificial cognition, which is, I feel, an important item 
>>>>for principles of information in our world where artificial agents 
>>>>participate more and more to all components of our lives. Could you 
>>>>tell us more on that?
>>>>All the best
>>>>Christophe
>>>>Bourgine, P. Stewart, J. (2004) ‘Autopoiesis and cognition’ 
>>>>Artificial life, Summer 2004, Vol. 10, No. 3, MIT Press Journals. 
>>>>http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI 
>>>><http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/1064546041255557#.VJLBnCuG-UI>
>>>>
>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>De : Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> 
>>>><mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> de la part de Pedro C. 
>>>>Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es> 
>>>><mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
>>>>Envoyé : vendredi 18 septembre 2020 20:01
>>>>À : 'fis' <fis en listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>>>Objet : Re: [Fis] Fwd: The 10 Principles
>>>>
>>>>Dear All,
>>>>Thanks to Jose Javier for his comments. Regarding the loop you 
>>>>mention about distinction, you are right, but this is a very 
>>>>characteristic of life (see that Maturana and Varela already said 
>>>>something pretty similar in their Tree of Knowledge). In the other 
>>>>biological principles that follow (below)  I try to clarify that 
>>>>notion in several directions, particularly concerning signaling 
>>>>systems, a concept which was completely ignored until well in the 
>>>>1990s. Your second comment may be partially responded looking at 
>>>>those further principles dealing with the symbolic communication via 
>>>>language and the social narratives, not far from what you have 
>>>>pointed. Thus I include the whole principles herein.
>>>>1. Information is distinction on an adjacent difference.
>>>>
>>>>2. Information processes consist in organized action upon 
>>>>differences collected onto structures, patterns, sequences, 
>>>>messages, or flows.
>>>>
>>>>3. Information flows are essential organizers of life's 
>>>>self-production process –the life cycle– anticipating, shaping, and 
>>>>mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
>>>>
>>>>4. Proto-phenomena of meaning, knowledge, and cognition (& 
>>>>intelligence) emerge via signaling systems of living cells, fully 
>>>>developed in the action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.
>>>>
>>>>5. Information/communication exchanges among adaptive life-cycles 
>>>>underlie the complexity of biological organization at all scales.
>>>>
>>>>6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication 
>>>>exchanges of individuals —and constitutes the core of human "social 
>>>>nature."
>>>>
>>>>7. Human information can be transformed into efficient knowledge by 
>>>>following the "knowledge instinct", further enhanced and delimited 
>>>>by collectively applying rigorous methodologies.
>>>>
>>>>8. Human cognitive limitations are partially overcome via "knowledge 
>>>>ecologies", where knowledge circulates and recombines socially in a 
>>>>continuous actualization that involves "creative destruction" of 
>>>>theories, practices, and disciplines.
>>>>
>>>>9. Narratives become encapsulated forms of “natural intelligence”, 
>>>>tailored to capture collective attention and memory, and essential 
>>>>for the cohesion of social, political, and economic structures.
>>>>
>>>>10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on how 
>>>>information and knowledge surround individual lives, with profound 
>>>>consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for social 
>>>>governance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Briefly referring to the other discussion track (Christophe), I 
>>>>quite agree with situating the origins of (genuine) meaning with 
>>>>living beings, but have some trouble with "constraints" when 
>>>>generally applied to biological cognition. I think they may be more 
>>>>useful in other fields (originated in kinematics, they become more 
>>>>and more volatile as used in Dynamic Systems Theory, and similarly 
>>>>weakened when going from AI to biological cognition). For instance,  
>>>>given 3,000 genes in Ecoli, organized in mixed clusters of fiendish 
>>>>complexity, how do you establish meaningful constraints? Or can even 
>>>>attribute separate "functions"? You may see in DOI: 
>>>>10.1016/j.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002 
>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476081481&sdata=Gs6M4SxmClw83ShkAl9Vf7UIYyppHAAUxprvHFtZDRY%3D&reserved=0> 
>>>>   the very dimensions of this ontology problem.
>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fderef%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fdx.doi.org%252F10.1016%252Fj.pbiomolbio.2015.07.002%3F_sg%255B0%255D%3DnH-ziIzFNlPKAqMszwKA9aJSdUF_He_Rfcal3jUKXaF_lvDrbTWXcTEDtf5uNRaHZMzJ0MFczgM3J-aub54-p6oiQA.Vi1baoaYqIl4vlby-pQVd58ob8urom6m0dhZo1yJ26_NjwihWirad9bxSivcVUymzy-vS1FcL9dD4ZQ7UDtz_w&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476091476&sdata=sVOZBlgJExzw%2F4z0j2flYw5BaV%2FXYR7jFcpIMyFnP3g%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>
>>>>Regarding Marcus' comment on life as imprecisely defined (and 
>>>>whether viruses or Gaia are 'alive'), the fundamental issue in 
>>>>natural sciences is "explaining" rather than defining. And 
>>>>fortunately the advancement in our explanations of life in last 
>>>>decades has been fantastic. Life can now be characterized in every 
>>>>basic aspect with amazing depth. One cannot give a precise 
>>>>definition of life, but one can provide a list of essential 
>>>>characteristics, and at the center are the informational ones. 
>>>>Empirically, the point is that information appears to be so 
>>>>ingrained in the molecular organization of life that scores of new 
>>>>bio-disciplines have been recently launched around it: 
>>>>bioinformatics, bioinformation, biocomputation, all the "omic" 
>>>>fields, signaling science, etc. Biosemiotics could be included too, 
>>>>but Hélas, most biosemioticians continue to "read" the DNA meaning 
>>>>via the genetic code, rather than exploring the "signals" abduced 
>>>>from the environment and "distinctionally worked out and transcribed 
>>>>in genes--from which ultimately "meaning" emerges. About viruses 
>>>>concretely, they have been essential in the origins of eukaryotic 
>>>>complexity and in the dynamic balance of marine and terrestrial 
>>>>ecosystems... irrespective on how we consider their degree of 
>>>>"aliveness". And finally "non comment" about some (baiting?) 
>>>>expressions in your previous reply.
>>>>
>>>>I see right now the careful "review" by Loet: better for a next 
>>>>occasion!
>>>>
>>>>Best--Pedro
>>>>
>>>>PS. The Three Messages per Week are counted following the 
>>>>international business week (from Monday to Sunday included).
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>-------------------------------------------------
>>>>Pedro C. Marijuán
>>>>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>>
>>>>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476101473&sdata=qqQnEhGLj93r21FFf%2FVrVDxydwdVhbWPCUYwD9Lfil8%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>-------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476111466&sdata=if5AFBKE0hLs1QmC4tnuECgjMMf9ZAdclujfkBfZaqI%3D&reserved=0> 
>>>>Libre de virus. www.avast.com 
>>>><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=02%7C01%7C%7C13a6b1012e6746c2a97208d85bfd00a1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637360489476121462&sdata=yu23Ci0EU1I6RptgsSyMTMLiBOrDcdKfQESRwSX9ud4%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>-------------------------------------------------
>>>Pedro C. Marijuán
>>>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>>
>>>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>>-------------------------------------------------
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