[Fis] FW: black hole and information. Probabilities in non-quantum and quantum systems

Wed Oct 14 07:04:31 CEST 2020

Dear Krassimir and colleagues,

@Thanks Joe for forwarding.

>The main problem is that probability is created by humans and only 
>humans can compute probabilities!
>
Why is this a problem? It seems an advantage to me.
>
>There are no probabilities in the reality.
>
>It is a human model for evaluation of what may happen.
>
Indeed, this is precisely one among the noted advantages.
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>
>But during the time, it was seen that it is a dead end.
>
>Probabilities are not physical and could not be assumed as physical 
>information.
>They are mental models!
>
Do we have any non-mental models. Do you not confuse modeling with 
physics?
Being not a physicist, I would not know what physical information is.

Shannon's H is not a physical, but a mathematical measure.  When one 
applies it to particles (momenta and energy distributions) one can 
relate it to physics; S = k(B) H relates H to thermodynamics. Physics, 
however, is not the main field of application for probability theory and 
information theory.

Best,
Loet

Best,
Loet

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>Friendly greetings
>
>Krassimir
>
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>PS: I am writing “off line” because of FIS limits.
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>From:Joseph Brenner <mailto:joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>
>
>Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 7:55 PM
>
>To:'Louis Kauffman' <mailto:loukau en gmail.com> ; 'Krassimir Markov' 
><mailto:markov en foibg.com>
>
>Cc:'FIS' <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es> ; yxs en pku.edu.cn
>
>Subject: RE: [Fis] black hole and information. Probabilities
>
>
>
>Dear Lou,
>
>I agree with your definition of physical information as capturing a 
>major aspect of it. To help in understanding, though, could you please 
>indicate if the probabilities in your physical states are statistical 
>or logical? The same question applies to quantum theory: is the 
>generalized probability here statistical or logical? Krassimir’s note 
>clearly refers to non-quantum interactions. Will it turn out that the 
>probabilities in the macroscopic and quantum worlds will be of 
>different types?
>
>An eager student,
>
>Joseph
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Louis 
>Kauffman
>Sent: lundi, 12 octobre 2020 18:21
>To:Krassimir Markov
>Cc: FIS; yxs en pku.edu.cn
>Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information
>
>
>
>Dear Krassimir,
>
>A physical state is represented by a wave function which can be 
>construed as a vector |z>= (z1,z2,…) in an infinite dimensional space 
>such that ||z||^2 = Sum_{i}(|z_i|^2) converges to 1.
>
>Measuring z produces one of the basis vectors |e_i> = (0,0,…,1,0,0,0…) 
>(where 1 is in the ith place) with probability |z_{i}|^2. (More 
>generally, one has a Hilbert space and and integral rather than a 
>summation.)
>
>In a specific application the basis vectors correspond to actual 
>possibilities of measurement by some devices (e.g. the positions when 
>an electron could hit a screen).
>
>The information in |z> is this probability distribution coupled with 
>the interpretations of the measurements. Under physical processes that 
>are not measurements “the information is
>
>preserved” in the sense that ||z||^2 is left unchanged by those 
>(unitary) processes. Quantum Theory is a generalized probability theory 
>in this sense.
>
>
>
>In my understanding, the above is what is meant by “physical 
>information”.
>
>Best,
>
>Lou Kauffman
>
>
>
>
>
>>On Oct 11, 2020, at 9:05 PM, Krassimir Markov <markov en foibg.com> 
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear Xueshan,
>>Thank you for your remarks.
>>
>>
>>What is methodical error in physics is that the different physical 
>>interactions like gravitation are assumed as information.
>>Can one describe what kind of information "Comet A can transmits to 
>>comet B".
>>Only physical, chemical or mechanical interactions may exists in the 
>>not living nature.
>>
>>Biological,  psychological and sociological interactions are specific 
>>only for living creatures.
>>
>>
>>
>>"Does the moon exist when no one sees it?"
>>
>>Yes, it exists, but it doesn't know anything about itself as well as 
>>it is not recognized as an object by other objects.
>>The same is valid for all objects in the nature.
>>
>>
>>
>>Finally, I could not understand what means“the black hole information 
>>is physical”.
>>Please, can you describe the “physical information”.
>>Is it the same as the reflection i.e. some structural or functional 
>>changes after physical, chemical or mechanical interactions?
>>
>>
>>Friendly greetings
>>
>>Krassimir
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>From: Xueshan Yan <mailto:yxs en pku.edu.cn>
>>
>>Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 4:13 AM
>>
>>To: FIS <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>
>>Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear Krassimir,
>>
>>Very sorry for my late reply.
>>
>>1. Yes, your statement "The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but 
>>not to the Black hole." is more precise than my "This year's Nobel 
>>Prize in physics goes to black hole research".
>>
>>2. "Without observer there is no black hole entropy, there is no 
>>information." Inadvertently, you have raised a quantum mechanical 
>>question of information. If we can remember, Einstein and Bohr have a 
>>long debate that has an essential impact on quantum mechanics. That is 
>>"Does the moon exist when no one sees it?" If there isn’t any human 
>>observer, does "black hole entropy or information" exist? I don't 
>>know.
>>
>>3. "Comet A can transmits information to comet B", this information 
>>about the behavior of the two comets greatly enriches our 
>>understanding of astrophysics. Here, the first information is physical 
>>and the second is human. Therefore, in my immature view, your 
>>"Consciousness is needed to reflect reality and to assume some 
>>reflections as information." is a human informatics problem, while the 
>>black hole information is physical.
>>
>>Karl's prediction is a great encouragement to us and will come true 
>>soon, let's be ready to accept the prize next year or later.
>>
>>Best wishes,
>>
>>Xueshan
>>
>>
>>
>>From: fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> On 
>>Behalf Of Krassimir Markov
>>Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 10:18 PM
>>To: yxs en pku.edu.cn; FIS Group <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear Xueshan,
>>
>>I have only one remark.
>>The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but not to the Black hole and 
>>not to any other object in the Cosmos!
>>
>>
>>Without observer there is no Black hole entropy, there is no 
>>information.
>>
>>So, the consciousness is needed to reflect reality and to assume some 
>>reflections as information.
>>
>>
>>
>>Friendly greetings
>>
>>Krassimir
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>From: Xueshan Yan <mailto:yxs en pku.edu.cn>
>>
>>Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2020 3:37 PM
>>
>>To: FIS Group <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>
>>Subject: [Fis] black hole and information
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear colleagues，
>>
>>
>>
>>This year's Nobel Prize in physics goes to black hole research today. 
>>When the curvature of space-time of a celestial body is so large that 
>>even light cannot escape from its event horizon, we call it a black 
>>hole. I. Once a black hole is formed, except for mass, angular 
>>momentum, and electric charge, all the previous material properties as 
>>objects disappear; II. The horizon area of the black hole is equal to 
>>its entropy (entropy equals negative information). These two issues 
>>form a close relationship between the research of black hole and 
>>information. The follow-up effect of this year's Nobel Prize in 
>>physics may lead to further thinking on the information in the future 
>>by astrophysicists, and lay a reverie foundation for the informational 
>>interpretation of matter several years later.
>>
>>
>>
>>Best wishes and health,
>>
>>Xueshan
>>
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