[Fis] FIS Forum

Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
Tue Mar 10 13:45:02 CET 2020

Dear Krassimir & List,

It looks an excellent initiative. Either a real mini-conference or the 
kind of intense e-forum you mention could be highly useful--and counting 
with the ITHEA infrastructure for both options is great. My personal 
preference is for the former, because I feel easily saturated by the 
"screen-type-activities" (eye strain, wrist and finger troubles) apart 
that many parties will overindulge in exposing their views & docs if 
allowed. The posting parsimony of fis is quite prudent/useful in that 
regard. Most probably that kind of intense e-forum is a task for young 
people and valiant PhD students. A practical solution: our colleagues in 
Brazil have developed a master course in information studies. Then, 
making a decent compilation of the stuff related with the intense 
exchanges these days, and trying to harmonize them, could be an 
excellent academic opportunity for their advanced student teams. They 
could lead the use of the ithea tool and convince reluctant senior 
parties to enter and see their advancing synthetic work... Besides 
Moises himself was one of the early participants in these exchanges.  
So, Gustavo & Moises, does the idea look feasible from your side? In any 
event, a "real" micro-conference centered in this very discussion would 
be ideal--could it take place in Brazil too? The eternal problem of 
financing--could it be tackled??

Back to the discussion, I was intrigued by the last messages from Mark 
and Lou./"...we find something different in the empirical domain... /
/We do not demand that our abstract principles generate the phenomena 
there. /
/In fact we find that concept and percept arise together in the 
examination of phenomena /
/and that it is in this arising, with the help of thinking and the 
fundamental circularity of thought knowing thought, /
/that we come to agree that information is present."/
I would also put the emphasis on the "examination" term, as it is full 
of "action" (the peculiar scientific action that has to be standardized, 
with methods, procedures, etc.). And then realizing that the result of 
our examination is quite different in the "animate"  versus the 
"inanimate" phenomena, /we come to [specifically] agree that information 
is present./ Clarifying that anything can be information for us, but not 
so when the examined is a living thing--it abduces in its own way./

Best wishes--Pedro

El 09/03/2020 a las 21:28, Krassimir Markov escribió:
> Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,
> Thank you for the nice remark!
> 1)
> Yes! Most of the recent messages look in Sync.
> I think, we are very near to discovering the common base of phenomenon 
> which we call “information”.
> Where is the problem?
> Let remember the Babylon tower – we all speak different languages, 
> especially when we propose examples.
> For instance, please see the last several posts.
> From my point of view, we need common test bed* for illustrating our 
> definitions and theories and
> to run test drive** of our definitions and theories on common platform.
> It could not be the same for different levels of the life’s organization.
> Now I am working to propose a sample one for the human’s level.
> May be it is possible to prepare corresponded test bed for cell’s level,
> etc.
> 2)
> I think, we need additional possibility to communicate more freely and 
> in a more great speed than via 3 posts in a week and without attachments.
> Mailing lists do not permit such one because of storing permanently 
> all letters and because of limited storage space.
> From my point of view, a kind of Forum is needed.
> Let me propose such possibility for free Smile !
> At the ITHEA® Cloud I have created such Forum called “Information 
> Theories”.
> It is already available at the address:
> http://idr.ithea.org/tiki-view_forum.php?forumId=3
> To participate in this Forum, one has to register him/herself on the 
> page of forum.
> All information in the Forum will be accessible only for registered users.
> And only registered users will have possibility to create new topics 
> and to write in Forum.
> In the Forum, unlimited number of posts as well as attachments up to 
> 1M are permitted.
> The main difference of the Forum and mailing lists is that the posts 
> will last only for 90 days and after that they will be deleted.
> It is aimed for temporal operative interaction only.
> I kindly invite all FIS Colleagues to became members of the Forum.
> As usual, registration will be completed after receiving confirmation 
> letter by e-mail and clicking on the link in it.
> Let me note that there is a little error in the system – when one try 
> to logoff, an error message is received.
> It causes no problems with information. To exit one need to press X in 
> upper right corner (Windows exit).
> As first my step, I shall post my proposition for test bed and I 
> expect to discuss it in the Forum.
> When I’ll be ready, I’ll inform the FIS list.
> Meanwhile, everybody is free to create topics and write in Forum.
> Maybe it is a good idea to inform FIS list if a new topic is created.
> Finally, I shall advertise the Forum in ITHEA® Society (more than 4000 
> members) to involve more scientists in our discussions.
> Of course, every FIS member may became ITHEA® member for free!
> It is easy to be done at: http://online.foibg.com/
> Friendly greetings
> Krassimir
> * A *“test bed”* is a platform for conducting rigorous, transparent, 
> and replicable testing of scientific theories, computational tools, 
> and new technologies [Wikipedia].
> ** In a broader sense, "*test drive*" can be used to refer to the 
> testing of anything, such as a computer program, an idea or process, a 
> car, a pair of shoes, etc. [Wikipedia]
> *From:* Pedro C. Marijuan <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2020 8:37 PM
> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] defining information - Goal, Methodology, Steps ...
> Dear Krassimir and FIS colleagues,
> Most of the recent messages look in Sync. The consensus points, under 
> different names, towards information as secondary, relative, 
> undefinable... and particularly towards the need, when defining it, of 
> including the context in which the definition is established. 
> Personally I am more interested in the concerns about empirical 
> information matters in different disciplines: we have heard snippets 
> from computer science, maths, biology, neuroscience (Jose Luis--could 
> you please send me that very interesting paper? It it is not an open 
> access) ... My traditional position is that the "informational 
> coupling" of life forms with the abduced parts of their environment 
> (signals, communication, etc.) in the advancement of their own living 
> cycle should be considered as the proto-phenomenon of information. 
> Agents, agency, are an abstraction in other disciplines (computer 
> science, economics) derived from the former proto-phenomenon, 
> unfortunately depriving it of some of its most interesting qualities. 
> So rich is in every generative aspect: Conatus principle (Spinoza), 
> fundamental coding (Rosen), genetic algorithms (Holland), 
> sel-constructing "machines" (von Neumann), neural topodynamics 
> (Friston)...
> The above central "informational coupling" appears as valid along the 
> complexity growth: procaryots, eukaryots, multicells, nervous systems, 
> societies... in each of these realms, and in multiple ways, we can 
> point to "info definitions" and contexts tailored to the particular 
> phenomenology. From cellular signalling systems to the bonding 
> structures of our societies, or to the adaptive role of emotions. For 
> instance, I have various research papers on the intriguing info 
> content of laughter and its enigmatic relationship to the life cycle 
> (it is omnipresent in our lives). Why?? A neural network can detect 
> with more than 90% success from just a bunch of your laughs whether 
> you are falling in depression or not (Navarro et al. 2014). Entropy of 
> the frequencies involved is a major key.
> Developing consistent empirical research on information "caught in the 
> act" is crucial.
> Best--Pedro
> El 06/03/2020 a las 19:25, Krassimir Markov escribió:
>> Dear Pedro and Colleagues,
>> First of all, I apologize again to Yixin for asking postponing this 
>> discussion and to Joseph for my silence in January.
>> As you all see now, this one is very intensive and it was possible to 
>> interrupt the New Year Lecture of Joseph.
>> In addition, Joseph had moderated it very nice and we receive very 
>> good collection of examples of disinformation, misinformation and etc.
>> From my point of view, it is just what we need now.
>> Well, let’s go further.
>> *1. What is our goal* - to give one or more definitions of concept 
>> “information” or to establish useful information theories to be 
>> applied to practical domains to understand and solve real problems?
>> From my point of view - the last is our goal.
>> Because of this it doesn’t matter how much definitions we will have.
>> It is important to see that the concrete definition may be applied to 
>> a concrete domain to explain a concrete phenomenon.
>> In other words, I expect to see examples as more as possible.
>> *2. We need methodological**knowledge* to establish new concepts and 
>> theories.
>> First of all, we need to clear what kind is our new concept - primary 
>> or secondary.
>> Concerning the concept “information”, it may be introduced as a 
>> primary, as well as, as a secondary concept.
>> If it is a primary concept, it has to be introduces by series of well 
>> known examples.
>> If it is a secondary concept, the primary concepts, which will define 
>> it, need to be chosen precisely and again to be introduced by 
>> corresponded series of examples.
>> For me, the “information” is a secondary concept!
>> If we assume it as a primary concept, it will be direct way to well 
>> known concepts of “Got” and modern variants, such as 
>> “Information-space-time continuum”.
>> If one believes in “Information”, he/she may explain many of real 
>> phenomena.
>> But in the same time, he/she will fall down in some kind of dogma. 
>> (Dear Gordana, elections are the same case!).
>> *3. I propose to follow the next steps* when we propose definitions 
>> of “information”:
>> 1) to point clearly if it is a primary or a secondary concept;
>> 2) if it is a primary concept, to stop further discussion and to try 
>> to understand the examples given by the author(s);
>> 3) in the second case, to introduce clearly the primary concepts and 
>> step by step to present the theory.
>> *4. No problems if we will have many theories* for the same phenomenon.
>> It is well known that, for instance, the Geometry is not a single 
>> theory.
>> You may know at least several geometries:
>> - Euclidean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry);
>> - Non-Euclidean: hyperbolic or elliptic 
>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry);
>> - Spherical geometry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_geometry),
>> etc.
>> This point of view, in 1993, I had included in the name of the first 
>> ITHEA^® International Journal calling it “Information Theories and 
>> Applications” .
>> Friendly greetings
>> Krassimir
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
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Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es

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