[Fis] FIS Forum

Krassimir Markov markov at foibg.com
Mon Mar 9 21:28:48 CET 2020

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

Thank you for the nice remark!

Yes! Most of the recent messages look in Sync. 

I think, we are very near to discovering the common base of phenomenon which we call “information”.

Where is the problem? 
Let remember the Babylon tower – we all speak different languages, especially when we propose examples.
For instance, please see the last several posts.

>From my point of view, we need common test bed* for illustrating our definitions and theories and
to run test drive** of our definitions and theories on common platform.

It could not be the same for different levels of the life’s organization.
Now I am working to propose a sample one for the human’s level.

May be it is possible to prepare corresponded test bed for cell’s level,

I think, we need additional possibility to communicate more freely and in a more great speed than via 3 posts in a week and without attachments.
Mailing lists do not permit such one because of storing permanently all letters and because of limited storage space.
>From my point of view, a kind of Forum is needed.

Let me propose such possibility for free  !

At the ITHEA® Cloud I have created such Forum called “Information Theories”.
It is already available at the address:

To participate in this Forum, one has to register him/herself on the page of forum.
All information in the Forum will be accessible only for registered users.
And only registered users will have possibility to create new topics and to write in Forum.

In the Forum, unlimited number of posts as well as attachments up to 1M are permitted. 
The main difference of the Forum and mailing lists is that the posts will last only for 90 days and after that they will be deleted.
It is aimed for temporal operative interaction only.

I kindly invite all FIS Colleagues to became members of the Forum.
As usual, registration will be completed after receiving confirmation letter by e-mail and clicking on the link in it.

Let me note that there is a little error in the system – when one try to logoff, an error message is received.
It causes no problems with information. To exit one need to press X in upper right corner (Windows exit).

As first my step, I shall post my proposition for test bed and I expect to discuss it in the Forum.
When I’ll be ready, I’ll inform the FIS list.

Meanwhile, everybody is free to create topics and write in Forum.
Maybe it is a good idea to inform FIS list if a new topic is created.

Finally, I shall advertise the Forum in ITHEA® Society (more than 4000 members) to involve more scientists in our discussions.
Of course, every FIS member may became ITHEA® member for free!
It is easy to be done at: http://online.foibg.com/

Friendly greetings

* A “test bed” is a platform for conducting rigorous, transparent, and replicable testing of scientific theories, computational tools, and new technologies [Wikipedia]. 
** In a broader sense, "test drive" can be used to refer to the testing of anything, such as a computer program, an idea or process, a car, a pair of shoes, etc. [Wikipedia] 

From: Pedro C. Marijuan 
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2020 8:37 PM
To: fis at listas.unizar.es 
Subject: Re: [Fis] defining information - Goal, Methodology, Steps ...

Dear Krassimir and FIS colleagues,

Most of the recent messages look in Sync. The consensus points, under different names, towards information as secondary, relative, undefinable... and particularly towards the need, when defining it, of including the context in which the definition is established. Personally I am more interested in the concerns about empirical information matters in different disciplines: we have heard snippets from computer science, maths, biology, neuroscience (Jose Luis--could you please send me that very interesting paper? It it is not an open access) ... My traditional position is that the "informational coupling" of life forms with the abduced parts of their environment (signals, communication, etc.) in the advancement of their own living cycle should be considered as the proto-phenomenon of information. Agents, agency, are an abstraction in other disciplines (computer science, economics) derived from the former proto-phenomenon, unfortunately depriving it of some of its most interesting qualities. So rich is in every generative aspect: Conatus principle (Spinoza), fundamental coding (Rosen), genetic algorithms (Holland), sel-constructing "machines" (von Neumann), neural topodynamics (Friston)...

The above central "informational coupling" appears as valid along the complexity growth: procaryots, eukaryots, multicells, nervous systems, societies... in each of these realms, and in multiple ways, we can point to "info definitions" and contexts tailored to the particular phenomenology. From cellular signalling systems to the bonding structures of our societies, or to the adaptive role of emotions. For instance, I have various research papers on the intriguing info content of laughter and its enigmatic relationship to the life cycle (it is omnipresent in our lives). Why?? A neural network can detect with more than 90% success from just a bunch of your laughs whether you are falling in depression or not (Navarro et al. 2014). Entropy of the frequencies involved is a major key.

Developing consistent empirical research on information "caught in the act" is crucial.


El 06/03/2020 a las 19:25, Krassimir Markov escribió:

  Dear Pedro and Colleagues,

  First of all, I apologize again to Yixin for asking postponing this discussion and to Joseph for my silence in January. 

  As you all see now, this one is very intensive and it was possible to interrupt the New Year Lecture of Joseph. 

  In addition, Joseph had moderated it very nice and we receive very good collection of examples of disinformation, misinformation and etc. 

  From my point of view, it is just what we need now.

  Well, let’s go further.

  1. What is our goal - to give one or more definitions of concept “information” or to establish useful information theories to be applied to practical domains to understand and solve real problems? 

  From my point of view - the last is our goal. 

  Because of this it doesn’t matter how much definitions we will have. 

  It is important to see that the concrete definition may be applied to a concrete domain to explain a concrete phenomenon.

  In other words, I expect to see examples as more as possible.

  2. We need methodological knowledge to establish new concepts and theories. 

  First of all, we need to clear what kind is our new concept - primary or secondary. 

  Concerning the concept “information”, it may be introduced as a primary, as well as, as a secondary concept.

  If it is a primary concept, it has to be introduces by series of well known examples.

  If it is a secondary concept, the primary concepts, which will define it, need to be chosen precisely and again to be introduced by corresponded series of examples.

  For me, the “information” is a secondary concept! 

  If we assume it as a primary concept, it will be direct way to well known concepts of “Got” and modern variants, such as “Information-space-time continuum”. 

  If one believes in “Information”, he/she may explain many of real phenomena. 

  But in the same time, he/she will fall down in some kind of dogma. (Dear Gordana, elections are the same case!).

  3. I propose to follow the next steps when we propose definitions of “information”:

  1) to point clearly if it is a primary or a secondary concept;

  2) if it is a primary concept, to stop further discussion and to try to understand the examples given by the author(s);

  3) in the second case, to introduce clearly the primary concepts and step by step to present the theory.

  4. No problems if we will have many theories for the same phenomenon. 

  It is well known that, for instance, the Geometry is not a single theory. 

  You may know at least several geometries:

  - Euclidean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry);

  - Non-Euclidean: hyperbolic or elliptic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry);

  - Spherical geometry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_geometry),


  This point of view, in 1993, I had included in the name of the first ITHEA® International Journal calling it “Information Theories and Applications” .

  Friendly greetings


Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
     Libre de virus. www.avast.com  

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