[Fis] TR: 10 Principles

Sat Jul 4 14:49:02 CEST 2020

Dear Karl,
thanks for these comments and rewordings.
Let me understand them well enough so I can get back to you.
Best
Christophe

________________________________
De : Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
Envoyé : vendredi 3 juillet 2020 16:59
À : Christophe Menant <christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>
Cc : Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Objet : Re: [Fis] TR: 10 Principles

Dear Christophe,

Please allow me to sympathetically restate your excellent points, in my language:

You write:

… component of information for meaning and knowledge …

… information as meaning carrier … foundation of information science …

… historically reluctant to use the concept of evolution …

… not really considering evolution …

… concepts like bio-intentionality … neglected …

… go beyond the weight of history …

My rewording:

Of the tree of philosophy, the investigations into the syntax of true sentences is a branch. It has yielded its own fruits, but it is off the main idea of philosophy, which has to address that which we do not or not sufficiently understand. True sentences are by definition true, and can contain nothing that is worthy of investigation. There is nothing philosophically interesting in the grammar of true sentences.

That what Wittgenstein did by clarifying both the subject and the methods to be applied to the subject was a gift of friendship for the people, including the engineers, but it was no philosophical work sensu stricto.

Unfortunately, the rules of the grammar of languages, natural or logical, do have a high technical interest, as all machines since von Neumann, Frege, …, Shannon, … are based on the general understanding mapped out by Wittgenstein.

The reluctance of philosophers to deal with meaning lies in the fact that meaning can only be present if there is an alternative to the result that was meant. Without the idea of misunderstandings, noise, desinformation and lies as the background, the idea of communication in the post-Wittgenstein sense cannot exist, as the present version cannot be mis-understood, therefore cannot carry any meaning.

The unfortunate point is in the small print: Wittgenstein begins with a=a. There is not much to discuss about that. Whatever we can say in a comprehensive manner, there can be no misinterpretation, because the correct sentence points out one specific fact.

The edifice of formal thinking is solidly fundamented in the axiom that there is but one truth in one moment, and the corollary that the future is not predictable.

It is against the grammatical rules to think clearly about chains of events that come in the future, in the present understanding of mathematics, as expressed by Bruno in his mathematical structure (N, 0, s, +, *)., which roots in Wittgenstein, as he basically said, if it is a correct sentence, it will result/revert in its most simplified form to a=a.

Meaning develops with the presence of alternatives, of which we learn (by the words and pointing movements of those who educated me, Augustinus) to distinguish that one which is meant.

We need to think also in formal contexts by the technique used in planning. We know what happens as we set a step-by-step procedure in motion. We need to introduce this method of thinking in periods and cycles to the basic fundamentals of reasoning.

Supporting your ideas is the Zeitgeist, which needs a new version of the codex of what is reasonable to say and in which fashion. Everybody wants to talk about processes and changes. Your friendly and helpful accountant is ready to serve you with the tools needed.

Focusing on what happens in limited collections that are subject to periodic changes allows a Latter Day Wittgenstein to publish observations relating to those wondrous little creations of human ingenuity, the so-called natural numbers.

Kaleidoscopic changes between readings and changes that happen by themselves show a wide variety of phenomena, which introduce in a natural fashion the deictic furniture of facts and relations, on which we can learn, how things become what they are and enter into discussions about meaning and evolution. (By using words while pointing to facts.}

Predictable fulfilments of expectations based on properties is the overall name of the Tractatus bio-informaticus which is presented to you the people and specifically FIS. The Tractatus bio-informaticus is in its ideal condensation form a large and complicated table, which the reader creates for himself on his own computer (as long as there is no public online decision delivering machine in use). Instructions can be found e.g. in “Picturing Order”.

Once we have agreed on the idea that our reasoning system no more stands only on a=a, but also on {a1 → a2 →… ak → a1}, the tables on expectations, fulfilments and predictability are open to you.

Cultural optimism was no characteristic of Freud. Your wish: … go beyond the weight of history … is happily shared by your accountant, but such miracles would need some.

Bon weekend

Karl

Am Fr., 3. Juli 2020 um 14:46 Uhr schrieb Christophe Menant <christophe.menant at hotmail.fr<mailto:christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>>:
Dear Pedro,
Your post is welcome as you address the evolutionary component of information for meaning and knowledge (“the life cycle, from the cellular to the biographic”, ”communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles"). As you know, the coming up of information as meaning carrier in our universe is for me at the foundation of information science (https://philpapers.org/rec/MENCOI<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENCOI&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0ea86dbe21b6465fc53f08d81f61aea0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293851680694093&sdata=k%2Bd%2BmGr2XlSMAwlfJBOqZtNc8PXtVkVTvyQEMxExG7o%3D&reserved=0>) . My March 26 post highlights most of these points.
Also, as discussed off-line with some FISers, it may be worth recalling that phenomenology and analytic philosophy are historically reluctant to use the concept of evolution (see S. Cunningham “Philosophy and the Darwinian legacy”). The founding fathers had an excuse: the Darwin theory was not really known at their time. But it is a bit surprising to see the heirs, well aware of the evolution of life, still not really considering evolution.
As a consequence some key concepts like bio-intentionality have been neglected.
It may be time to go beyond the weight of history.
Could our FIS forum be part of that?
Best
Christophe

________________________________
De : Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> de la part de Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>>
Envoyé : jeudi 2 juillet 2020 21:39
À : 'fis' <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Objet : Re: [Fis] 10 Principles

Dear List,

I am following with interest the ongoing exchanges related (at least
initially) to the 10 Principles. I my view, there is a fundamental
problem, difficult to expostulate, that somehow lurks in most of these
messages taken from different generalizing perspectives: the Shannonian,
the cognitive, the data processing, the art.intelligence, the
panbiological, the pansemiotic, dynamic systems, etc.

In my own approach 3 years ago, I purposely left that basic problem
almost untouched and started by a tautology (Wiener's dictum), although
the problem partially reappeared behind other points (basically 4 and 5,
and also 8). My unresolved hunch contemplated a central element –the
life cycle, from the cellular to the biographic– having the potential to
organize the new scientific discourse on information and nucleating the
new mode of thought, appearing as the fundamental source/sink,
emitter/receptor, and essential organizer of the informational way of
being in the world, the only creator of "meaning" and "knowledge". But
time has passed and I have not been able to decently cohere the info
scheme of the cell with the neural processing evolutionary
functionality, the individual human inquirer's limitations, and the
thought collective within a culture. The info day-to-day that our
organisms spontaneously live in!

OK, I admit the problem may not be very well put... In my opinion,
advancing in the resolution of this presumed informational conundrum
brings to the fore fundamental philosophical discussions—disentangling
them concerns stances from both information science and information
philosophy, I think.

In any case, if I am right about the persistence of that unsolved stuff,
there is always a consensus option: to agree in some bridging principles
or fundamentals, even if they are not so tight-sound (it happens in the
beginnings of many new disciplines--some parties may remember I
advocated years ago for an ad hoc face-to-face meeting only about these
problems). Or we can continue waiting for the synthetic effort of
individuals within/outside this thought collective to find out an
acceptable meta-perspective... And if I am wrong, and one of the
generalized perspectives above has muscle to bring sufficient solution,
then it will finally prevail and as usual "the winner takes all". Time
will tell. I am inclined towards the consensus option.

Best wishes

--Pedro

--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f56cd0d3c83456ba28108d81ebfc196%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293156213250789&sdata=1Mn%2FinFr%2BcUUb3v4tEc2PIEbIaRa%2FEdx6V00wK87UfU%3D&reserved=0<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fpedrocmarijuan%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0ea86dbe21b6465fc53f08d81f61aea0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293851680704087&sdata=uimcnDoZzMcwiPuz51FbTqXYmv2NdLBHcFKBQ7%2Fed3M%3D&reserved=0>
-------------------------------------------------

--
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus.
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fantivirus&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f56cd0d3c83456ba28108d81ebfc196%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293156213250789&sdata=0RVYwT0qyG7WuWA5FZRAyyyTChzaCJ4ifW5dsbIs0po%3D&reserved=0<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fantivirus&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0ea86dbe21b6465fc53f08d81f61aea0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293851680704087&sdata=lIB%2FF6%2F7Em%2FVj0tKJF%2FyDDq3cvt4qDgIdApQpnRQd3M%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f56cd0d3c83456ba28108d81ebfc196%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293156213250789&sdata=9xWpKJfljBQyMGp7ypN72v%2FmW7vP55dzhk9M%2FZX3i6g%3D&reserved=0<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0ea86dbe21b6465fc53f08d81f61aea0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293851680714077&sdata=kc3QxKKNbeqNifmXjMG50r0Y5t6HQzSnNDNOYqEyJyw%3D&reserved=0>
----------
INFORMACIN SOBRE PROTECCIN DE DATOS DE CARCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la informacin sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsicuz.unizar.es%2Finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f56cd0d3c83456ba28108d81ebfc196%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293156213250789&sdata=nwEKLoXCataS4seDlYifKsQCTFqWkIJDdpoL%2FDkpNQg%3D&reserved=0<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsicuz.unizar.es%2Finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0ea86dbe21b6465fc53f08d81f61aea0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293851680714077&sdata=DMqHiEGMSaYxNDDhPHbyzXpqbXCkdnR4GJh5Zsi0lmo%3D&reserved=0>
Recuerde que si est suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicacin en el momento en que lo desee.
https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f56cd0d3c83456ba28108d81ebfc196%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293156213250789&sdata=5ERe0cO7UF8Oq2FCRYF0RE%2FhK4Hhq166YnDSnrZ6uDA%3D&reserved=0<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0ea86dbe21b6465fc53f08d81f61aea0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293851680724074&sdata=qdZP7QklSPRR8xFuWBqHst1Lk9AGozS0lGUSBuqOkJ0%3D&reserved=0>
----------
_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0ea86dbe21b6465fc53f08d81f61aea0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293851680724074&sdata=Tc6gC%2FcYnOs8hxVa7TivCephJI%2F3Dnyp%2BruikxsoWOo%3D&reserved=0>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsicuz.unizar.es%2Finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0ea86dbe21b6465fc53f08d81f61aea0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293851680734069&sdata=tY%2BASqTCjxGFjpUUDq242bRwzZQxf3xUdatVS0kBVW4%3D&reserved=0>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
http://listas.unizar.es<https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0ea86dbe21b6465fc53f08d81f61aea0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293851680734069&sdata=JdojRVp5HaMNFdL%2F1CL3DsfUsisosIXGcHJ8Zcx9B6U%3D&reserved=0>
----------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20200704/52cddf4d/attachment-0001.html>