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<span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important">Dear Karl,<span> </span></span><br style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important">thanks for these comments and rewordings.<span> </span></span><br style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important">Let me understand them well enough so I can get back to you.</span><br style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important">Best</span><br style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)">
<span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); display: inline !important">Christophe</span><br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b> Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky@gmail.com><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 3 juillet 2020 16:59<br>
<b>À :</b> Christophe Menant <christophe.menant@hotmail.fr><br>
<b>Cc :</b> Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es>; fis <fis@listas.unizar.es><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] TR: 10 Principles</font>
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<span lang="DE-AT">Dear Christophe,<span></span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span lang="DE-AT"><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
Please allow me to sympathetically restate your excellent points, in my language:<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 36pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i>You write: <span></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 36pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i>… component of information for meaning and knowledge …<span></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 36pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i>… information as meaning carrier … foundation of information science …<span></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 36pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i>… historically reluctant to use the concept of evolution …<span></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 36pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i>… not really considering evolution …<span></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 36pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i>… concepts like bio-intentionality … neglected …<span></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt 36pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<i>… go beyond the weight of history …<span></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
My rewording:<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
Of the tree of philosophy, the investigations into the syntax of true sentences is a branch. It has yielded its own fruits, but it is off the main idea of philosophy, which has to address that which we do not or not sufficiently understand. True sentences are
by definition true, and can contain nothing that is worthy of investigation. There is nothing philosophically interesting in the grammar of true sentences.
<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
That what Wittgenstein did by clarifying both the subject and the methods to be applied to the subject was a gift of friendship for the people, including the engineers, but it was no philosophical work sensu stricto.<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
Unfortunately, the rules of the grammar of languages, natural or logical, do have a high technical interest, as all machines since von Neumann, Frege, …, Shannon, … are based on the general understanding mapped out by Wittgenstein.
<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
The reluctance of philosophers to deal with meaning lies in the fact that meaning can only be present if there is an alternative to the result that was meant. Without the idea of misunderstandings, noise, desinformation and lies as the background, the idea
of communication in the post-Wittgenstein sense cannot exist, as the present version cannot be mis-understood, therefore cannot carry any meaning.<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
The unfortunate point is in the small print: Wittgenstein begins with <i>a=a</i>. There is not much to discuss about that. Whatever we can say in a comprehensive manner, there can be no misinterpretation, because the correct sentence points out one specific
fact.<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
The edifice of formal thinking is solidly fundamented in the axiom that there is but one truth in one moment, and the corollary that the future is not predictable.<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
It is against the grammatical rules to think clearly about chains of events that come in the future, in the present understanding of mathematics, as expressed by Bruno in his
<b><i>mathematical structure (N, 0, s, +, *)., </i></b>which roots in Wittgenstein, as he basically said, if it is a correct sentence, it will result/revert in its most simplified form to
<i>a=a.<span></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<b>Meaning</b> develops with the presence of alternatives, of which we learn <i>(by the words and pointing movements of those who educated me, Augustinus)</i> to distinguish that one which is meant.
<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
We need to think also in formal contexts by the technique used in planning. We know what happens as we set a step-by-step procedure in motion. We need to introduce this method of thinking in periods and cycles to the basic fundamentals of reasoning.<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<b>Supporting </b>your ideas is the Zeitgeist, which needs a new version of the codex of what is reasonable to say and in which fashion. Everybody wants to talk about processes and changes. Your friendly and helpful accountant is ready to serve you with the
tools needed. <span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<b>Focusing </b>on what happens in <b>limited collections </b>that are subject to
<b>periodic changes </b>allows a Latter Day Wittgenstein to publish observations relating to those wondrous little creations of human ingenuity, the so-called natural numbers.
<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<b>Kaleidoscopic </b>changes between readings and changes that happen by themselves show a wide variety of phenomena, which introduce in a natural fashion the deictic furniture of facts and relations, on which we can learn, how things become what they are and
enter into discussions about meaning and evolution. <i>(By using words while pointing to facts.}<span></span></i></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<b>Predictable fulfilments of expectations based on properties </b>is the overall name of the Tractatus bio-informaticus which is presented to you the people and specifically FIS. The Tractatus bio-informaticus is in its ideal condensation form a large and
complicated table, which the reader creates for himself on his own computer (as long as there is no public online decision delivering machine in use). Instructions can be found e.g. in “Picturing Order”.<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
Once we have agreed on the idea that our reasoning system no more stands only on <i>
a=a</i>, but also on <i>{a<sub>1</sub> </i><i><span>→</span> a<sub>2</sub> </i><i><span>→…
</span>a<sub>k</sub> </i><i><span>→</span> a<sub>1</sub>}</i>, the tables on expectations, fulfilments and predictability are open to you.
<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<b>Cultural optimism </b>was no characteristic of Freud. Your wish: <i>… go beyond the weight of history …</i> is happily shared by your accountant, but such miracles would need some.<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
Bon weekend<span></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
Karl<span></span></p>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">Am Fr., 3. Juli 2020 um 14:46 Uhr schrieb Christophe Menant <<a href="mailto:christophe.menant@hotmail.fr">christophe.menant@hotmail.fr</a>>:<br>
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<span style="color:black; font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt">Dear Pedro,</span><br>
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<div style="font-size:12pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black; font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt">Your post is welcome as you address the evolutionary component of information</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt"> for
meaning and knowledge (“</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black; font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt">the life cycle, from the cellular to the biographic”, ”</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(32,31,30); font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt; background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%">communication/information
exchanges among adaptive life-cycles</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%">"</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black; font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt">). As you know, the coming up of information
as meaning carrier in our universe is for me at the foundation of information science (</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt"><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENCOI&data=02%7C01%7C%7C0ea86dbe21b6465fc53f08d81f61aea0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637293851680694093&sdata=k%2Bd%2BmGr2XlSMAwlfJBOqZtNc8PXtVkVTvyQEMxExG7o%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://philpapers.org/rec/MENCOI" shash="fcT8dQd+6xyWq5kL0VzsXhPpCrleo7/uXX7Tahnu9Y9ZWahiC935JxXaZPnpgQYYXY7F2Qv5uGk82OaRPgfLivJd6vAxHMwmId6gL2DBGT9hWw4WjiEf1uUs+oAUfDF+awqnoa2rtpnDnLmFJ26jvjE4p2HAgK5k7FfjokBA8g0=" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue">https://philpapers.org/rec/MENCOI</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black; font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt">)
. <span style="color:black; font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt">My March 26 post highlights most of these points.</span></span></div>
<div style="font-size:12pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black; font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt">Also, as discussed off-line with some FISers, it may be worth recalling </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:rgb(50,49,48); font-family:Cambria,serif; font-size:11pt; border:1pt none windowtext; padding:0cm">that
phenomenology and analytic philosophy are historically reluctant to use the concept of evolution (see S. Cunningham “Philosophy and the Darwinian legacy”). The founding fathers had an excuse: the Darwin theory was not really known at their time. But it is
a bit surprising to see the heirs, well aware of the evolution of life, still not really considering evolution.<br>
As a consequence some key concepts like bio-intentionality have been neglected. <br>
It may be time to go beyond the weight of history. <br>
Could our FIS forum be part of that?<br>
Best<br>
Christophe<br>
</span><br>
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<div id="x_gmail-m_709571341868216683x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b> Fis <<a href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>> de la
part de Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 2 juillet 2020 21:39<br>
<b>À :</b> 'fis' <<a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Fis] 10 Principles</font>
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<div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div>Dear List,<br>
<br>
I am following with interest the ongoing exchanges related (at least <br>
initially) to the 10 Principles. I my view, there is a fundamental <br>
problem, difficult to expostulate, that somehow lurks in most of these <br>
messages taken from different generalizing perspectives: the Shannonian, <br>
the cognitive, the data processing, the art.intelligence, the <br>
panbiological, the pansemiotic, dynamic systems, etc.<br>
<br>
In my own approach 3 years ago, I purposely left that basic problem <br>
almost untouched and started by a tautology (Wiener's dictum), although <br>
the problem partially reappeared behind other points (basically 4 and 5, <br>
and also 8). My unresolved hunch contemplated a central element –the <br>
life cycle, from the cellular to the biographic– having the potential to <br>
organize the new scientific discourse on information and nucleating the <br>
new mode of thought, appearing as the fundamental source/sink, <br>
emitter/receptor, and essential organizer of the informational way of <br>
being in the world, the only creator of "meaning" and "knowledge". But <br>
time has passed and I have not been able to decently cohere the info <br>
scheme of the cell with the neural processing evolutionary <br>
functionality, the individual human inquirer's limitations, and the <br>
thought collective within a culture. The info day-to-day that our <br>
organisms spontaneously live in!<br>
<br>
OK, I admit the problem may not be very well put... In my opinion, <br>
advancing in the resolution of this presumed informational conundrum <br>
brings to the fore fundamental philosophical discussions—disentangling <br>
them concerns stances from both information science and information <br>
philosophy, I think.<br>
<br>
In any case, if I am right about the persistence of that unsolved stuff, <br>
there is always a consensus option: to agree in some bridging principles <br>
or fundamentals, even if they are not so tight-sound (it happens in the <br>
beginnings of many new disciplines--some parties may remember I <br>
advocated years ago for an ad hoc face-to-face meeting only about these <br>
problems). Or we can continue waiting for the synthetic effort of <br>
individuals within/outside this thought collective to find out an <br>
acceptable meta-perspective... And if I am wrong, and one of the <br>
generalized perspectives above has muscle to bring sufficient solution, <br>
then it will finally prevail and as usual "the winner takes all". Time <br>
will tell. I am inclined towards the consensus option.<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
<br>
--Pedro<br>
<br>
-- <br>
-------------------------------------------------<br>
Pedro C. Marijuán<br>
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a><br>
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL<br>
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Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
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