[Fis] about the idea of “hierarchies of structures”

Loet Leydesdorff loet at leydesdorff.net
Sun Feb 3 19:22:23 CET 2019


Dear Krassimir,

>The idea is simple: the real world consists of hierarchies of 
>structures which are built by other structures from low levels.
>
This is not only simple, it is a simplification. Perhaps, a considerable 
percentage of the "hierarchies" are "heterarchies"? We need a strategy 
to test the truth of such statements. References to Genesis are not 
helpful because that  (Crhistianity) is a belief system, and not a 
system of rationalized and if possible testable expectations.

It seems to me that there is no theoretical need for a "general theory 
of information." Information is generated when systems communicate. The 
information is yet dimension-free (bits). The reference to a system 
provides the information with dimensionality.

For example, when energy and momenta are communicated (and tend to be 
conserved), thermodynamic entropy is generated. When atoms are 
communicated, one expects a chemistry; when molecules are communicated a 
biology, etc. There may be no hierarchy among these levels, but rather a 
fractional manifold. The fragments perhaps fail to exist as hierarchies? 
We should not derive from "esse" (e.g., ontology), but from "frangere" 
(e.g., failure).

Best,
Loet

>
>
>This model shows that, practically, all entities of the real world are 
>hierarchically organized.
>
>Very important is that there not exists a total comprehensive structure 
>- just the opposite - the real world consists of very great variety of 
>structures.
>
>
>
>What is common for all structures?
>
>
>
>To answer, one need to look in the bases of the structures - all are 
>organizations of very small elements.
>
>Greeks call them “atoms”, now we know that there exist “smaller” 
>elements - electrons, particles, photons, waves, and other “minute 
>portions of matter” (“tiny particles of dust”).
>
>
>
>Further, I remembered the Ross Ashby idea of emerging of the new 
>features at the given level of the system, which not exist in the 
>elements of low levels.
>
>Just, such features are live, intelligence, and  consciousness, which 
>emerge as new properties of the structures (systems).
>
>Ancient wise people had noticed this!
>For instance, please remember Genesis 2:7: “Then the LORD God formed a 
>man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the 
>breath of life, and the man became a living being.”
>
>There is no clear boundary between live structures and not live ones. 
>In every moment first may be destroyed to the second as well as the 
>former may be organized to the first one.
>For instance, please remember Genesis 3:19: “for dust you are and to 
>dust you will return”.
>
>In General Information Theory (GIT), we consider the real world as a 
>space of entities.
>
>The entities are built by other entities, connected with relationships.
>
>The entities and relationships between them form the internal structure 
>of the entity they build.
>
>To create the entity of a certain structural level of the world, it is 
>necessary to have:
>
>− Entities of the lower structural level;
>
>− Established forming relationship.
>
>The entity can dialectically be considered as a relationship between 
>its entities of all internal structural levels.
>
>
>
>The forming relationship has a representative significance for the 
>entity.
>
>The destruction of this essential relationship causes its 
>disintegration.
>
>The establishment of forming relationship between already existing 
>entities has a determine significance for the emerging of the new 
>entity.
>
>The forming relationship is the reason for the emergence of individual 
>properties, which distinguish the new entity from the forming ones.
>
>The relationships form and present the entity.
>
>(http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf)
>
>
>
>Kind regards
>
>Krassimir
>
>
>
>----
>
>Krassimir Markov
>
>Honorary professor, PhD
>
>University of Telecommunications and Post
>
>Sofia, Bulgaria
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From:Krassimir Markov <mailto:markov en foibg.com>
>Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2019 6:30 PM
>To:jose luis perez velazquez <mailto:jlpvjlpv en gmail.com> ; fis 
><mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>
>Subject: [Fis] Living and not living structures
>
>
>
>Hola, José Luis y queridos FIS colegas!
>
>The discussion came to very important point marked by José Luis.
>
>Now it is seen that there exists a hierarchy of structures which are 
>built by other structures from low levels. This model shows that, 
>practically, all entities of the real world are hierarchically 
>organized.
>
>What about the live and the intelligence?
>
>Practically, we came to the W. Ross Ashby’s “PRINCIPLES OF THE 
>SELF-ORGANIZING SYSTEM”  
>https://emergent.blob.core.windows.net/classic-articles/3aa37176-f414-4820-b5e5-b3be0cdb0395.pdf 
>.
>
>I kindly recommend this paper to be reread.
>
>
>
>For our discussion, very important are the next sentences:
>
>
>
>“Every isolated determinate dynamic system obeying unchanging laws will 
>develop "organisms" that are adapted to their "environments"
>
>and
>
>“In any isolated system, life and intelligence inevitably develop.”
>
>
>
>At the given level of complexity and organization, some structures 
>became “alive” and “intelligent” in some degree. As the structure 
>(system) is more complex, so it may be more intelligent.
>
>As Ashby remarked, live, intelligence, and (if I may add) consciousness 
>emerge as new property of the structure (system).
>
>There is no need to ask if the cell has consciousness and intelligence. 
>The answer is clear - YES!
>
>But its consciousness and intelligence are quite different of those of 
>the fish, bee, dog, or human.
>
>There is no clear boundary between live structures and not live ones. 
>In every moment first may be destroyed to the second as well as the 
>former may be organized to the first one.
>
>Finally, all live structures we know at this moment have very important 
>feature of self-reproducing using DNA structures.
>
>Friendly greetings
>
>Krassimir
>
>
>
>----
>
>Krassimir Markov
>
>Honorary professor, PhD
>
>University of Telecommunications and Post
>
>Sofia, Bulgaria
>
>
>
>
>From:jose luis perez velazquez <mailto:jlpvjlpv en gmail.com>
>Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2019 1:21 PM
>To:fis <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>
>Subject: [Fis] Fwd: "the mother of information"--MINI-BRAINS
>
>---------- Forwarded message ---------
>From: jose luis perez velazquez<jlpvjlpv en gmail.com>
>Date: Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 2:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [Fis] "the mother of information"--MINI-BRAINS
>To: Alexander Fingelkurts <alexander.fingelkurts en bm-science.com>
>
>      Hola a todos.   In what I wrote about lack of consciousness in 
>particles or cells I should have been clearer. I admit cells, bacteria 
>etc.  have some aspects/features of consciousness, but I would not say 
>they display self-awareness, perhaps one of the top features. These 
>problems are derived, once again,from the desire to define precisely 
>something like life, consciousness, or intelligence, things that are 
>almost impossible to define in one sentence. To wit, one definition of 
>intelligence is the ability to adapt to change, well, then bacteria are 
>intelligent. One aspect of life is compartmentalization and exchange of 
>energy, tehrefore some inorganic materials have this property and could 
>be considered "half alive". These notions we have created, life, 
>consciousness, intelligence etc. are nothing but that: our inventions. 
>Out there in nature there is a continuum;  evolution operates mainly as 
>a continuum without sharp steps (although some apparently existed), as 
>a dynamical system, a process.  Similar principles of organization 
>apply to the living and non living (as I tried to expound in "Finding 
>simplicity in complexity: general principles of biological and 
>nonbiological organization", 
>www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710456).
>      Trying to impose clear demarcations in these concepts is, to me, a 
>mistake (or misunderstanding). Hence, I do agree that cells share some 
>features of consciousness, but perchance everybody would agree with the 
>fact that only humans, and perhaps other close relatives, have all the 
>properties one can think of when enumerating the features of 
>consciousness, and of course one can try to set up a hierarchy in which 
>self-awareness could be at the top... but again, that hierarchy would 
>be our invention.
>
>
>
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