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<body><div>Dear Krassimir, </div><div><br /></div><div id="x6e4ac25a53684e0"><blockquote cite="560AFBA6AD15448DBC46AC520DE4441A@vaiomarkov" type="cite" class="cite2"><div dir="ltr"><div style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">The idea is simple: the real world consists of
hierarchies of structures which are built by other structures from low levels.
</font></p></div></div></blockquote><font face="Calibri" size="4"><div id="x6e4ac25a53684e0"><font size="4">This is not only simple, it is a simplification. Perhaps, a considerable percentage of the "hierarchies" are "heterarchies"? We need a strategy to test the truth of such statements. References to Genesis are not helpful because that (Crhistianity) is a belief system, and not a system of rationalized and if possible testable expectations.</font></div><div id="x6e4ac25a53684e0"><font size="4"><br /></font></div><div id="x6e4ac25a53684e0">It seems to me that there is no theoretical need for a "general theory of information." Information is generated when systems communicate. The information is yet dimension-free (bits). The reference to a system provides the information with dimensionality. </div><div id="x6e4ac25a53684e0"><br /></div><div id="x6e4ac25a53684e0">For example, when energy and momenta are communicated (and tend to be conserved), thermodynamic entropy is generated. When atoms are communicated, one expects a chemistry; when molecules are communicated a biology, etc. There may be no hierarchy among these levels, but rather a fractional manifold. The fragments perhaps fail to exist as hierarchies? We should not derive from "esse" (e.g., ontology), but from "frangere" (e.g., failure).</div><div id="x6e4ac25a53684e0"><br /></div><div id="x6e4ac25a53684e0">Best,</div><div id="x6e4ac25a53684e0">Loet</div><br /></font><blockquote cite="560AFBA6AD15448DBC46AC520DE4441A@vaiomarkov" type="cite" class="cite2"><div dir="ltr"><div style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4"><span><br /></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">This model shows that, practically, all entities of
the real world are hierarchically organized. </font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">Very important is that there not exists a total
comprehensive structure - just the opposite - the real world consists of very
great variety of structures.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4"></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">What is common for all structures? </font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4"></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">To
answer, one need to look in the bases of the structures - all are organizations
of very small elements. </font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">Greeks
call them “atoms”, now we know that there exist “smaller” elements - electrons,
particles, photons, waves, and other “minute portions of matter” (“tiny
particles of dust”).</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4"></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4">Further, I remembered the Ross Ashby idea of <font color="#000000">emerging
of the new features</font> at the given level of the system, which not exist in
the elements of low levels. </font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4">Just, such features are live, intelligence, and consciousness, which emerge as new
properties of the structures (systems).</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4">Ancient
wise people had noticed this!<br /></font><font size="4">For
instance, please remember Genesis 2:7:
“Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4">There
is no clear boundary between live structures and not live ones. In every moment
first may be destroyed to the second as well as the former may be organized to
the first one.<br /></font><font size="4">For
instance, please remember Genesis 3:19:
“for dust you are and to dust you will return”.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">In General Information Theory (GIT), we consider the real world as a
space of entities. </font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">The entities are built by other entities, connected with relationships.
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">The entities and relationships between them form the internal structure
of the entity they build. </font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">To create the entity of a certain structural level of the world, it is
necessary to have:</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">−
Entities of the lower structural level;</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">−
Established forming relationship.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">The entity can dialectically be considered as a relationship between its
entities of all internal structural levels.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4"></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">The forming relationship has a representative significance for the
entity. </font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">The destruction of this essential relationship causes its disintegration.
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">The establishment of forming relationship between already existing
entities has a determine significance for the emerging of the new
entity.</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">The forming relationship is the reason for the emergence of individual
properties, which distinguish the new entity from the forming ones.
</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">The relationships form and present the entity. </font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">(</font><a style="href: "http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf""><font color="#0000ff" size="4">http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf</font></a><font size="4">)</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4"></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">Kind regards</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4">Krassimir</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><font size="4"></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4">----</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4">Krassimir Markov</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4">Honorary professor, PhD</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4">University of Telecommunications and Post</font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4">Sofia, Bulgaria</font></p>
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<div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="markov@foibg.com" href="mailto:markov@foibg.com">Krassimir Markov</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 02, 2019 6:30 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="jlpvjlpv@gmail.com" href="mailto:jlpvjlpv@gmail.com">jose luis perez velazquez</a> ; <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> [Fis] Living and not living structures</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
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<div style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4"></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><span lang="ES" style="LINE-HEIGHT: 16pt; mso-ansi-language: es">Hola, José Luis y queridos FIS
colegas!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">The discussion came to very important point marked by
José Luis. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">Now it is seen that there exists a hierarchy of
structures which are built by other structures from low levels. This model shows
that, practically, all entities of the real world are hierarchically
organized.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">What about the live and the intelligence? </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">Practically, we came to the W. Ross Ashby’s
“PRINCIPLES OF THE SELF-ORGANIZING SYSTEM”
<a style="href: "https://emergent.blob.core.windows.net/classic-articles/3aa37176-f414-4820-b5e5-b3be0cdb0395.pdf""><font color="#0000ff">https://emergent.blob.core.windows.net/classic-articles/3aa37176-f414-4820-b5e5-b3be0cdb0395.pdf</font></a>
.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">I kindly recommend this paper to be reread.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">For our discussion, very important are the next
sentences:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><strong></strong> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><strong>“<i>Every isolated determinate dynamic system
obeying unchanging laws will develop "organisms" that are adapted to their
"environments" </i></strong></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><strong><i>and </i></strong></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><strong><i>“In any isolated system, life and
intelligence inevitably develop.”</i></strong></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4"></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">At the given level of complexity and organization,
some structures became “alive” and “intelligent” in some degree. As the
structure (system) is more complex, so it may be more intelligent.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">As Ashby remarked, live, intelligence, and (if I may
add) consciousness emerge as new property of the structure (system).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">There is no need to ask if the cell has consciousness
and intelligence. The answer is clear - YES!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">But its consciousness and intelligence are quite
different of those of the fish, bee, dog, or human.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">There is no clear boundary between live structures and
not live ones. In every moment first may be destroyed to the second as well as
the former may be organized to the first one. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">Finally, all
live structures we know at this moment have very important feature of
self-reproducing using DNA structures.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">Friendly greetings</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">Krassimir</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt"><font size="4"></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">----</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">Krassimir Markov</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">Honorary professor, PhD</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">University of Telecommunications and Post</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 13pt">Sofia, Bulgaria</p>
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<div><font size="4" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="jlpvjlpv@gmail.com" href="mailto:jlpvjlpv@gmail.com">jose luis perez velazquez</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 02, 2019 1:21 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="fis@listas.unizar.es" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> [Fis] Fwd: "the mother of
information"--MINI-BRAINS</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br />From:
<strong class="gmail_sendername">jose luis perez velazquez</strong> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jlpvjlpv@gmail.com">jlpvjlpv@gmail.com</a>></span><br />Date: Fri,
Feb 1, 2019 at 2:44 PM<br />Subject: Re: [Fis] "the mother of
information"--MINI-BRAINS<br />To: Alexander Fingelkurts <<a href="mailto:alexander.fingelkurts@bm-science.com">alexander.fingelkurts@bm-science.com</a>><br /></div>
<div> </div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"> Hola a todos. In what I wrote
about lack of consciousness in particles or cells I should have been clearer. I
admit cells, bacteria etc. have some aspects/features of consciousness,
but I would not say they display self-awareness, perhaps one of the top
features. These problems are derived, once again,from the desire to define
precisely something like life, consciousness, or intelligence, things that are
almost impossible to define in one sentence. To wit, one definition of
intelligence is the ability to adapt to change, well, then bacteria are
intelligent. One aspect of life is compartmentalization and exchange of energy,
tehrefore some inorganic materials have this property and could be considered
"half alive". These notions we have created, life, consciousness, intelligence
etc. are nothing but that: our inventions. Out there in nature there is a
continuum; evolution operates mainly as a continuum without sharp steps
(although some apparently existed), as a dynamical system, a process.
Similar principles of organization apply to the living and non living (as I
tried to expound in "Finding simplicity in complexity: general principles of
biological and nonbiological organization", <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710456">www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2710456</a>).</div>
<div dir="ltr"> Trying to impose clear demarcations in
these concepts is, to me, a mistake (or misunderstanding). Hence, I do agree
that cells share some features of consciousness, but perchance everybody would
agree with the fact that only humans, and perhaps other close relatives, have
all the properties one can think of when enumerating the features of
consciousness, and of course one can try to set up a hierarchy in which
self-awareness could be at the top... but again, that hierarchy would be our
invention.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div></div></div></div></div>
<p>
</p><hr />
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<p>
</p><hr />
_______________________________________________<br />Fis mailing
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