[Fis] Contingency signals: AI Information, Decision and Learning

[Jason Hu]

Hi Emanuel, hi Krassimir, hi Mark, hi all:

Can we have a simpler definition of "information"?
Information is simply something that "informs";

"Inform" is making up a "form";
A "form">="meaning" (because you sometimes have meaningless forms);
A "form" is a stable state generated by a cognitive system (of human, of
animal, of LLMs), i.e. in Heinz von Foerster's term "an eigenstate";
There is "a difference" between "not having that form" and "now I get a new
form", i.e. Gregory Bateson's term "A difference that makes a difference";
So, "Information" is simply something (a perceived change, a signal, data,
disturbance, someone's email, etc.) that brings you a new "form" - you say
"ah-ha" when you get that form. Period.

The integral of data = information (in a perceiving mind);
The integral of information = knowledge (in minds or on paper);
The integral of knowledge = understanding (in minds only);
The integral of understanding = wisdom (in minds only)

Agree? My handshaking!
Not agree? You're welcome to present your views to a Club of Remy
discussion session (clubofremy.org, YouTube.com/@clubofremy/videos)

Best regards, Jason


On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 6:38 AM <emanl.245 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Mark, dear All,
>
>
>
> I read your letter with great pleasure (and satisfaction).
>
> I don't usually participate in FIS discussions. Back in 2015, at the IS4IS
> Vienna Summit, I presented a paper, "Brain Is Processing Information,"
> which was very well accepted and even sent to the MDPI for publication. But
> it wasn't published – the guest editors (also FIS activists) decisively
> rejected it, without even explaining the reasons. I tried to submit the
> material to the next ITHEA conference, but it was also rejected (also by
> FIS activists). I published the entire article in Research Gate ("*The
> Brain Is Processing Information, Not Data. Does Anyone Care*?"), and
> didn't ask any further explanations. In 2017, I submitted a new paper to
> the next IS4IS Summit, but it was immediately rejected. A complaint to the
> Summit Organizing Committee and J. Brenner's intervention changed the
> situation, but instead of the Information Theory section, I read it in the
> Philosophy of Information section (DOI: 10.3390/IS4SI-2017-04031
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.3390/IS4SI-2017-04031__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlCr7SMwO$>).
> However, I no longer take part in FIS discussions.
>
>
>
> But I would like to respond to your letter – firstly, I agree with many of
> his statements. Secondly, I believe that finding a solution to the problem
> of defining "what is information" is the most important task of the FIS,
> and I would like to remined to you and to the FISes that I have already
> accomplished something in this direction – I defined information as a
> complex concept that includes syntactic and semantic information as
> distinct but inseparable components (*https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366064436__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VS7eFH_WCBzR4K0UjC9sDy_axQR6hiVF8CF2b6gBcPVrtrLp-yD0KzxVg-SZ8FvdTlbjQ8hovejK3nu51NITR3O9gn_6$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366064436__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlE5W0nt1$>*).
> This does not allow us to measure semantic information, which is necessary
> to assess the quality of semantic information processing, but it does allow
> us to correctly assess other aspects of information processing in the human
> brain. (I used this to study the etiology of Alzheimer's disease, which
> remains undefined for more than 100 years, DOI: 10.47363/JCBR/2024(6)168
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.47363/JCBR/2024(6)168__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlGn0rI0b$>
> ).
>
>
>
> A warm welcome to you and all other FISs – potential (probable) allies in
> our further attempts to define information.
>
>
>
> Emanuel Diamant.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> *On Behalf Of *Mark Johnson
> *Sent:* Monday, November 24, 2025 10:08 PM
> *To:* fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Contingency signals: AI Information, Decision and
> Learning
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> The problem with information is that, barring Shannon (which is a special
> case), it lacks operationalisability. Shannon gives us a way of counting -
> which is analogous to Ashby's law of requisite variety (Ashby acknowledged
> this), and it clearly works for communication networks. It is a curiosity
> for social communication (leaving many questions), and even more so for art
> or music.
>
>
>
> Surely we need a new way of thinking which can be operationalised? That is
> the spirit of the paper I sent round. And the message is that we "measure"
> in order to organise ourselves better. Often today we see measurement used
> as a way of organising ourselves worse (think of Doge or Key Performance
> Indicators!). So we need an antidote.
>
>
>
> I remain fascinated by Shannon but I am not convinced it is the way
> forwards. I see variations of it - in Leydesdorff (who I deeply respected),
> or in Friston - as algorithmic tweaks which lack ontological resonance. Our
> binary logic (bits) still gets in the way.
>
>
>
> So I come back to perception (which is what the paper is about).
> Perception is not information but behaviour. We do not "process" what we
> perceive, but act with it, as Gibson said. Bill Powers Perceptual Control
> Theory may be closer to the mark. If AI perceives as we do, that is
> important beyond information. It must be to do with movement and space,
> because space is essential to the behaviour of perceiving. There is, I
> suspect, a latent encoding of space in AI, just as there was an encoding of
> space in Ashby's "box" (see https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://constructivist.info/20/2/181.fischer__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VS7eFH_WCBzR4K0UjC9sDy_axQR6hiVF8CF2b6gBcPVrtrLp-yD0KzxVg-SZ8FvdTlbjQ8hovejK3nu51NITRzyAQbsE$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/constructivist.info/20/2/181.fischer__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5DI58XZZU$>
> ). There is no space in Shannon, or in Friston, nor (ironically) in
> metaphors that talk of "infospace", phase space, etc. Metaphorical space is
> often little more than 2d vectors.
>
>
>
> I think we need a simple operationalisable topology - an "iconic calculus
> of space" (I don't think this is Spencer-Brown, but perhaps that's a start,
> as is Joe Brenner's LIR). I am very drawn to Milo Beckman's brilliant "Math
> Without Numbers" ( https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://amzn.eu/d/9deAiZU__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VS7eFH_WCBzR4K0UjC9sDy_axQR6hiVF8CF2b6gBcPVrtrLp-yD0KzxVg-SZ8FvdTlbjQ8hovejK3nu51NITR8vXk3rd$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/amzn.eu/d/9deAiZU__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5Dc-P0i4Y$>)
> as a starting point for this. Part of the answer to the challenge lies in
> understanding why Beckman's book is so ingenious and engaging. If we could
> speak and act in relation to biology, art, learning and organising in
> equally simple iconic ways, then I hope we would make some progress.
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dr. Mark William Johnson
>
> Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
>
> University of Manchester
>
>
>
> Department of Science Education
>
> University of Copenhagen
>
>
>
> Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
>
> University of Liverpool
>
> Phone: 07786 064505
> Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
> Blog: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VS7eFH_WCBzR4K0UjC9sDy_axQR6hiVF8CF2b6gBcPVrtrLp-yD0KzxVg-SZ8FvdTlbjQ8hovejK3nu51NITR2Zak3VP$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5D7iTQWyM$>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2025, 17:01 William Miller, <wbmiller1 at cox.net> wrote:
>
> Kassimir,
>
> I appreciated our astute comments. You might be interested to note that
> what you detailed is codified through the concept of infoautopoiesis,
> initiated by Jaime Cardenas-Garcia and emphasized by my work and our mutual
> papers. In this framework, all the information that any cell has of its
> external environment is the result of its internal measurement of received
> syntactic information from its receptors (syntactic information is stimuli
> resulting from matter-energy interactions devoid of intrinsic meaning).
> That received information, as a source of initial ambiguity, is measured
> internally by a cell for value as infocomputation for salience and valence,
> pertaining to its relationship to any cell's preferential state of flux).
> This is the cell's actual information (Effective Information, *EI) , which
> it has developed internally, which is the translation of syntactic
> information into semantic meaning-laden information that can be used by the
> cell for decision-making and problem-solving. A necessary correlate
> follows: all the information that any cell has is self-produced. Jaime and
> I regard this linkage as a fundamental aspect of the living frame.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 24, 2025 at 09:44:00 AM MST, Krassimir Markov <
> itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Steve,
> I was pleased to read your letter. You are very close to the definition of
> what we call "information", but you have not yet separated information as a
> result of its mention on a par with the causes.
> In fact, things are quite simple - what you call a "signal" is a two-sided
> entity.
> On the one hand, the environment affects the receptors, on the other hand,
> the receptors are activated and send impulses further into the body. Not
> all external influences are perceived as signals. For example, no matter
> how loudly you speak to a 100% deaf person, he will not register the
> arrival of signals from you.
> Therefore, it is correct to talk not about "signals", but about
> "reflections".
>
> Only when the receptors reflect the impact, only then does a process begin
> that leads to the appearance of "information".
> Any perceived reflection is "data" until it is recognized by the body.
> It is precisely the recognized data that is information, i.e. information
> is data with meaning.
> Further, if the information is fixed in the long-term memory of the
> organism, it becomes "knowledge".
> Some organisms can externalize their knowledge and thus interact with
> others.
> Well, in everyday jargon, usually, either out of ignorance or laziness,
> people use the word "information" to denote either data or externalized
> knowledge, for example, it is usually said "I collect information from
> sensors", while the correct one is "I collect data from sensors", as well
> as "I read a lot of information in the library today", instead of, "I
> gained a lot of knowledge in the library today".
> As an illustration, I attach a slide from my presentation at the 7th
> International Conference on Philosophy of Information (ICPI 2025), which
> was part of IS4SI 2025 - The 2025 Summit of the International Society for
> the Study of Information, June 2025, In-person and on-line, Varna, Bulgaria.
> With respect,
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
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