[Fis] Contingency signals: AI Information, Decision and Learning

Thu Nov 27 07:50:09 CET 2025

Caro Jason,

quel che tu bene-dici si trova nel mio processo di *tras-in-form-azione *--
*azione* nel dare o prendere *forma *che nel tempo (*in*) si* tras*-forma
-- e si avvale: della triade significazione, informazione e comunicazione;
e del triangolo dei tre surplus: termodinamico o naturale, eco biologico e
storico-culturale o semiotico-ermeneutico.

QUESTO E' IL BASAMENTO DELLA MIA NUOVA ECONOMIA.

Francesco

Dear Jason,

what you bless is found in my process of trans-in-form-ation—action in
giving or taking formm which over time (in)transforms -- and makes use of:
the triad of signification, information, and communication; and of the
triangle of the three surpluses: thermodynamic or natural, eco-biological,
and historical-cultural or semiotic-hermeneutic.

THIS IS THE FOUNDATION OF MY NEW ECONOMY.

Francesco

Caro Jason,
quel che tu bene-dici si trova nel mio processo di *tras-in-form-azione* --
*azione* nel dare o prendere *forma*
che nel tempo (*in*) si* tras*-forma e si avvale: della triade
significazione, informazione e comunicazione; .e
del triangolo dei tre surplus: termodinamico o naturale, eco-biologico e
storico-culturale o semiotico-ermeneutico.
QUESTO E' IL BASAMENTO DELLA MIA NUOVA ECONOMIA.
Francesco

Il giorno mer 26 nov 2025 alle ore 18:13 Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com>
ha scritto:

> Hi Emanuel, hi Krassimir, hi Mark, hi all:
>
> Can we have a simpler definition of "information"?
> Information is simply something that "informs";
>
> "Inform" is making up a "form";
> A "form">="meaning" (because you sometimes have meaningless forms);
> A "form" is a stable state generated by a cognitive system (of human, of
> animal, of LLMs), i.e. in Heinz von Foerster's term "an eigenstate";
> There is "a difference" between "not having that form" and "now I get a
> new form", i.e. Gregory Bateson's term "A difference that makes a
> difference";
> So, "Information" is simply something (a perceived change, a signal, data,
> disturbance, someone's email, etc.) that brings you a new "form" - you say
> "ah-ha" when you get that form. Period.
>
> The integral of data = information (in a perceiving mind);
> The integral of information = knowledge (in minds or on paper);
> The integral of knowledge = understanding (in minds only);
> The integral of understanding = wisdom (in minds only)
>
> Agree? My handshaking!
> Not agree? You're welcome to present your views to a Club of Remy
> discussion session (clubofremy.org
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://clubofremy.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VS7eFH_WCBzR4K0UjC9sDy_axQR6hiVF8CF2b6gBcPVrtrLp-yD0KzxVg-SZ8FvdTlbjQ8hovejK3nu51NITRwJ1zPfC$>,
> YouTube.com/@clubofremy/videos)
>
> Best regards, Jason
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 6:38 AM <emanl.245 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Mark, dear All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I read your letter with great pleasure (and satisfaction).
>>
>> I don't usually participate in FIS discussions. Back in 2015, at the
>> IS4IS Vienna Summit, I presented a paper, "Brain Is Processing
>> Information," which was very well accepted and even sent to the MDPI for
>> publication. But it wasn't published – the guest editors (also FIS
>> activists) decisively rejected it, without even explaining the reasons. I
>> tried to submit the material to the next ITHEA conference, but it was also
>> rejected (also by FIS activists). I published the entire article in
>> Research Gate ("*The Brain Is Processing Information, Not Data. Does
>> Anyone Care*?"), and didn't ask any further explanations. In 2017, I
>> submitted a new paper to the next IS4IS Summit, but it was immediately
>> rejected. A complaint to the Summit Organizing Committee and J. Brenner's
>> intervention changed the situation, but instead of the Information Theory
>> section, I read it in the Philosophy of Information section (DOI:
>> 10.3390/IS4SI-2017-04031
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.3390/IS4SI-2017-04031__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlCr7SMwO$>).
>> However, I no longer take part in FIS discussions.
>>
>>
>>
>> But I would like to respond to your letter – firstly, I agree with many
>> of his statements. Secondly, I believe that finding a solution to the
>> problem of defining "what is information" is the most important task of the
>> FIS, and I would like to remined to you and to the FISes that I have
>> already accomplished something in this direction – I defined information as
>> a complex concept that includes syntactic and semantic information as
>> distinct but inseparable components (*https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366064436__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UT2fw88LvPaJCVqa-G4bbf-Bv3MTtYuPrrH35Ces1PB4k81Uc3nTeHZEkOv3XfyooyxBaEZHni3Zcis0Q3Bwyu665aoX$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366064436__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlE5W0nt1$>*).
>> This does not allow us to measure semantic information, which is necessary
>> to assess the quality of semantic information processing, but it does allow
>> us to correctly assess other aspects of information processing in the human
>> brain. (I used this to study the etiology of Alzheimer's disease, which
>> remains undefined for more than 100 years, DOI: 10.47363/JCBR/2024(6)168
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.47363/JCBR/2024(6)168__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlGn0rI0b$>
>> ).
>>
>>
>>
>> A warm welcome to you and all other FISs – potential (probable) allies in
>> our further attempts to define information.
>>
>>
>>
>> Emanuel Diamant.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> *On Behalf Of *Mark Johnson
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 24, 2025 10:08 PM
>> *To:* fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Contingency signals: AI Information, Decision and
>> Learning
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem with information is that, barring Shannon (which is a special
>> case), it lacks operationalisability. Shannon gives us a way of counting -
>> which is analogous to Ashby's law of requisite variety (Ashby acknowledged
>> this), and it clearly works for communication networks. It is a curiosity
>> for social communication (leaving many questions), and even more so for art
>> or music.
>>
>>
>>
>> Surely we need a new way of thinking which can be operationalised? That
>> is the spirit of the paper I sent round. And the message is that we
>> "measure" in order to organise ourselves better. Often today we see
>> measurement used as a way of organising ourselves worse (think of Doge or
>> Key Performance Indicators!). So we need an antidote.
>>
>>
>>
>> I remain fascinated by Shannon but I am not convinced it is the way
>> forwards. I see variations of it - in Leydesdorff (who I deeply respected),
>> or in Friston - as algorithmic tweaks which lack ontological resonance. Our
>> binary logic (bits) still gets in the way.
>>
>>
>>
>> So I come back to perception (which is what the paper is about).
>> Perception is not information but behaviour. We do not "process" what we
>> perceive, but act with it, as Gibson said. Bill Powers Perceptual Control
>> Theory may be closer to the mark. If AI perceives as we do, that is
>> important beyond information. It must be to do with movement and space,
>> because space is essential to the behaviour of perceiving. There is, I
>> suspect, a latent encoding of space in AI, just as there was an encoding of
>> space in Ashby's "box" (see https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://constructivist.info/20/2/181.fischer__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UT2fw88LvPaJCVqa-G4bbf-Bv3MTtYuPrrH35Ces1PB4k81Uc3nTeHZEkOv3XfyooyxBaEZHni3Zcis0Q3Bwyr_i1S0j$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/constructivist.info/20/2/181.fischer__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5DI58XZZU$>
>> ). There is no space in Shannon, or in Friston, nor (ironically) in
>> metaphors that talk of "infospace", phase space, etc. Metaphorical space is
>> often little more than 2d vectors.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think we need a simple operationalisable topology - an "iconic calculus
>> of space" (I don't think this is Spencer-Brown, but perhaps that's a start,
>> as is Joe Brenner's LIR). I am very drawn to Milo Beckman's brilliant "Math
>> Without Numbers" ( https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://amzn.eu/d/9deAiZU__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UT2fw88LvPaJCVqa-G4bbf-Bv3MTtYuPrrH35Ces1PB4k81Uc3nTeHZEkOv3XfyooyxBaEZHni3Zcis0Q3BwyqSfw28-$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/amzn.eu/d/9deAiZU__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5Dc-P0i4Y$>)
>> as a starting point for this. Part of the answer to the challenge lies in
>> understanding why Beckman's book is so ingenious and engaging. If we could
>> speak and act in relation to biology, art, learning and organising in
>> equally simple iconic ways, then I hope we would make some progress.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr. Mark William Johnson
>>
>> Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
>>
>> University of Manchester
>>
>>
>>
>> Department of Science Education
>>
>> University of Copenhagen
>>
>>
>>
>> Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
>>
>> University of Liverpool
>>
>> Phone: 07786 064505
>> Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
>> Blog: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UT2fw88LvPaJCVqa-G4bbf-Bv3MTtYuPrrH35Ces1PB4k81Uc3nTeHZEkOv3XfyooyxBaEZHni3Zcis0Q3Bwyri1RbFD$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5D7iTQWyM$>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2025, 17:01 William Miller, <wbmiller1 at cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> Kassimir,
>>
>> I appreciated our astute comments. You might be interested to note that
>> what you detailed is codified through the concept of infoautopoiesis,
>> initiated by Jaime Cardenas-Garcia and emphasized by my work and our mutual
>> papers. In this framework, all the information that any cell has of its
>> external environment is the result of its internal measurement of received
>> syntactic information from its receptors (syntactic information is stimuli
>> resulting from matter-energy interactions devoid of intrinsic meaning).
>> That received information, as a source of initial ambiguity, is measured
>> internally by a cell for value as infocomputation for salience and valence,
>> pertaining to its relationship to any cell's preferential state of flux).
>> This is the cell's actual information (Effective Information, *EI) , which
>> it has developed internally, which is the translation of syntactic
>> information into semantic meaning-laden information that can be used by the
>> cell for decision-making and problem-solving. A necessary correlate
>> follows: all the information that any cell has is self-produced. Jaime and
>> I regard this linkage as a fundamental aspect of the living frame.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, November 24, 2025 at 09:44:00 AM MST, Krassimir Markov <
>> itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Steve,
>> I was pleased to read your letter. You are very close to the definition
>> of what we call "information", but you have not yet separated information
>> as a result of its mention on a par with the causes.
>> In fact, things are quite simple - what you call a "signal" is a
>> two-sided entity.
>> On the one hand, the environment affects the receptors, on the other
>> hand, the receptors are activated and send impulses further into the body.
>> Not all external influences are perceived as signals. For example, no
>> matter how loudly you speak to a 100% deaf person, he will not register the
>> arrival of signals from you.
>> Therefore, it is correct to talk not about "signals", but about
>> "reflections".
>>
>> Only when the receptors reflect the impact, only then does a process
>> begin that leads to the appearance of "information".
>> Any perceived reflection is "data" until it is recognized by the body.
>> It is precisely the recognized data that is information, i.e. information
>> is data with meaning.
>> Further, if the information is fixed in the long-term memory of the
>> organism, it becomes "knowledge".
>> Some organisms can externalize their knowledge and thus interact with
>> others.
>> Well, in everyday jargon, usually, either out of ignorance or laziness,
>> people use the word "information" to denote either data or externalized
>> knowledge, for example, it is usually said "I collect information from
>> sensors", while the correct one is "I collect data from sensors", as well
>> as "I read a lot of information in the library today", instead of, "I
>> gained a lot of knowledge in the library today".
>> As an illustration, I attach a slide from my presentation at the 7th
>> International Conference on Philosophy of Information (ICPI 2025), which
>> was part of IS4SI 2025 - The 2025 Summit of the International Society for
>> the Study of Information, June 2025, In-person and on-line, Varna, Bulgaria.
>> With respect,
>> Krassimir
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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