[Fis] Contingency signals: AI Information, Decision and Learning

Wed Nov 26 14:35:21 CET 2025

Dear Mark, dear All, 

I read your letter with great pleasure (and satisfaction).

I don't usually participate in FIS discussions. Back in 2015, at the IS4IS Vienna Summit, I presented a paper, "Brain Is Processing Information," which was very well accepted and even sent to the MDPI for publication. But it wasn't published – the guest editors (also FIS activists) decisively rejected it, without even explaining the reasons. I tried to submit the material to the next ITHEA conference, but it was also rejected (also by FIS activists). I published the entire article in Research Gate ("The Brain Is Processing Information, Not Data. Does Anyone Care?"), and didn't ask any further explanations. In 2017, I submitted a new paper to the next IS4IS Summit, but it was immediately rejected. A complaint to the Summit Organizing Committee and J. Brenner's intervention changed the situation, but instead of the Information Theory section, I read it in the Philosophy of Information section (DOI: 10.3390/IS4SI-2017-04031 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.3390/IS4SI-2017-04031__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlCr7SMwO$ > ). However, I no longer take part in FIS discussions.

But I would like to respond to your letter – firstly, I agree with many of his statements. Secondly, I believe that finding a solution to the problem of defining "what is information" is the most important task of the FIS, and I would like to remined to you and to the FISes that I have already accomplished something in this direction – I defined information as a complex concept that includes syntactic and semantic information as distinct but inseparable components (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366064436__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlE5W0nt1$ ). This does not allow us to measure semantic information, which is necessary to assess the quality of semantic information processing, but it does allow us to correctly assess other aspects of information processing in the human brain. (I used this to study the etiology of Alzheimer's disease, which remains undefined for more than 100 years, DOI: 10.47363/JCBR/2024(6)168 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dx.doi.org/10.47363/JCBR/2024(6)168__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlGn0rI0b$ > ).

A warm welcome to you and all other FISs – potential (probable) allies in our further attempts to define information.

Emanuel Diamant.

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of Mark Johnson
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2025 10:08 PM
To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Contingency signals: AI Information, Decision and Learning

Dear all,

The problem with information is that, barring Shannon (which is a special case), it lacks operationalisability. Shannon gives us a way of counting - which is analogous to Ashby's law of requisite variety (Ashby acknowledged this), and it clearly works for communication networks. It is a curiosity for social communication (leaving many questions), and even more so for art or music. 

Surely we need a new way of thinking which can be operationalised? That is the spirit of the paper I sent round. And the message is that we "measure" in order to organise ourselves better. Often today we see measurement used as a way of organising ourselves worse (think of Doge or Key Performance Indicators!). So we need an antidote.

I remain fascinated by Shannon but I am not convinced it is the way forwards. I see variations of it - in Leydesdorff (who I deeply respected), or in Friston - as algorithmic tweaks which lack ontological resonance. Our binary logic (bits) still gets in the way. 

So I come back to perception (which is what the paper is about). Perception is not information but behaviour. We do not "process" what we perceive, but act with it, as Gibson said. Bill Powers Perceptual Control Theory may be closer to the mark. If AI perceives as we do, that is important beyond information. It must be to do with movement and space, because space is essential to the behaviour of perceiving. There is, I suspect, a latent encoding of space in AI, just as there was an encoding of space in Ashby's "box" (see https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://constructivist.info/20/2/181.fischer__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlNVfw483$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/constructivist.info/20/2/181.fischer__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5DI58XZZU$>  ). There is no space in Shannon, or in Friston, nor (ironically) in metaphors that talk of "infospace", phase space, etc. Metaphorical space is often little more than 2d vectors. 

I think we need a simple operationalisable topology - an "iconic calculus of space" (I don't think this is Spencer-Brown, but perhaps that's a start, as is Joe Brenner's LIR). I am very drawn to Milo Beckman's brilliant "Math Without Numbers" ( https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://amzn.eu/d/9deAiZU__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlC8MpR-R$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/amzn.eu/d/9deAiZU__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5Dc-P0i4Y$> ) as a starting point for this. Part of the answer to the challenge lies in understanding why Beckman's book is so ingenious and engaging. If we could speak and act in relation to biology, art, learning and organising in equally simple iconic ways, then I hope we would make some progress.

Best wishes

Mark

Dr. Mark William Johnson

Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health

University of Manchester

Department of Science Education

University of Copenhagen

Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)

University of Liverpool

Phone: 07786 064505
Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com <mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> 
Blog: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlP9ffXvS$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_vWo3XbDlTqWOhMGqQ30dIDKIM6cIj8BJsfsncu-6hIiZoic3pav22nlYkEdr2zD3msykOOVUsJ3n5D7iTQWyM$> 

On Mon, 24 Nov 2025, 17:01 William Miller, <wbmiller1 at cox.net <mailto:wbmiller1 at cox.net> > wrote:

Kassimir, 

I appreciated our astute comments. You might be interested to note that what you detailed is codified through the concept of infoautopoiesis, initiated by Jaime Cardenas-Garcia and emphasized by my work and our mutual papers. In this framework, all the information that any cell has of its external environment is the result of its internal measurement of received syntactic information from its receptors (syntactic information is stimuli resulting from matter-energy interactions devoid of intrinsic meaning). That received information, as a source of initial ambiguity, is measured internally by a cell for value as infocomputation for salience and valence, pertaining to its relationship to any cell's preferential state of flux). This is the cell's actual information (Effective Information, *EI) , which it has developed internally, which is the translation of syntactic information into semantic meaning-laden information that can be used by the cell for decision-making and problem-solving. A necessary correlate follows: all the information that any cell has is self-produced. Jaime and I regard this linkage as a fundamental aspect of the living frame.

Best regards, 

Bill 

On Monday, November 24, 2025 at 09:44:00 AM MST, Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com <mailto:itheaiss at gmail.com> > wrote: 

Dear Steve,
I was pleased to read your letter. You are very close to the definition of what we call "information", but you have not yet separated information as a result of its mention on a par with the causes.
In fact, things are quite simple - what you call a "signal" is a two-sided entity.
On the one hand, the environment affects the receptors, on the other hand, the receptors are activated and send impulses further into the body. Not all external influences are perceived as signals. For example, no matter how loudly you speak to a 100% deaf person, he will not register the arrival of signals from you.
Therefore, it is correct to talk not about "signals", but about "reflections". 

Only when the receptors reflect the impact, only then does a process begin that leads to the appearance of "information".
Any perceived reflection is "data" until it is recognized by the body.
It is precisely the recognized data that is information, i.e. information is data with meaning.
Further, if the information is fixed in the long-term memory of the organism, it becomes "knowledge".
Some organisms can externalize their knowledge and thus interact with others.
Well, in everyday jargon, usually, either out of ignorance or laziness, people use the word "information" to denote either data or externalized knowledge, for example, it is usually said "I collect information from sensors", while the correct one is "I collect data from sensors", as well as "I read a lot of information in the library today", instead of, "I gained a lot of knowledge in the library today".
As an illustration, I attach a slide from my presentation at the 7th International Conference on Philosophy of Information (ICPI 2025), which was part of IS4SI 2025 - The 2025 Summit of the International Society for the Study of Information, June 2025, In-person and on-line, Varna, Bulgaria.
With respect,
Krassimir

 <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SnSUVTGq82JXZZ5iU3CqHSH_E0M36YQHaq8oxVutgnu500m1ESsr-xivFzLX5s_r57G_k_SIzN58O0SSxy8$> 

Virus-free. <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SnSUVTGq82JXZZ5iU3CqHSH_E0M36YQHaq8oxVutgnu500m1ESsr-xivFzLX5s_r57G_k_SIzN58O0SSxy8$> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Rc9pq86-QlllWB41T1w7WD8s_1i86Hm2kGnErqQZ-g74KAC9SHdL7I0GG1OWZI-1zprDrIvoyY7GlGTGYC4I$ 

_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es> 
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis 
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas 
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
http://listas.unizar.es 
----------

_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es> 
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis 
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas 
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
http://listas.unizar.es 
----------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20251126/19e55ed5/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 18423 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20251126/19e55ed5/attachment.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 350 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20251126/19e55ed5/attachment-0001.jpg>