[Fis] Fwd: Re: Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism--(Eric's)

Fri Mar 21 01:27:19 CET 2025

 pedro, thanks for this detailed and patient criticism.
with warmth and oomph--howard

    On Thursday, March 20, 2025 at 05:44:51 PM EDT, Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com> wrote:   

   -------- Mensaje reenviado -------- 
| Asunto:  | Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism |
| Fecha:  | Thu, 20 Mar 2025 12:23:33 +0100 |
| De:  | Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> |
| Organización:  | OARF.org |
| Para:  | Sudip Patra <spatra at jgu.edu.in>, Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>, Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>, Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com>, fis <fis at listas.unizar.es> |
| CC:  | Peter Erdi <peter.erdi at kzoo.edu>, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>, Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>, Daniel Boyd <daniel.boyd at live.nl> |

The role of definitions and information in theory construction

Dear Howard and Pauvre Materialists,

My "mishmash", as you describe it, was invitation to an open discussion about the concept of possibility and its role in the foundations of physics and more. It leads me to suspect you did not understand either the motives or how concepts involved relate to one another. Let me briefly clarify: 

   - It was an invitation to reason about the concept of possibility underpinning quantum mechanics with regular physics.
   - When I discussed with friends in Africa on the foundations of physics, linguistics, the role of intention and its representation in the brain, it was a back and forth with the hope of making progress. So it is my intention with fis. To lay bare the open ended questions and reasoning. That is an essential process in theory construction.    

   - Creating new theories, requires openness to different ways of looking at things, a back-and-forth. It means questioning with the willingness to learn.    

Definitions

   - If I define plus as minus then I can prove that 1+1 is zero. It looks surprising and catches attention, but it misses the point. So it is with your definition of information it does not capture some essential properties of the concept such as how information can incrementally increase.
   - One classic definition is: Information is that which adds to a representation. It is good, but fails for information states that do not have a common core.    

   - A definition needs to capture the properties of what it defines
   - Your definition lets you to claim all kinds of things that don’t necessarily match reality. I have not read your book but I suspect that your definition of information may have led you astray.    

AI its use and misuse   

   - By the way using Claude AI to have a deep discussion does not mean that I am not aware of its statistical bedrock. On the other hand you, perhaps unwittingly, took advantage of that and  bullied poor ChatGPT to give traditional answers that fit your views.  
   - In contrast, I used Claude to have an open discussion not forcing it, rather stimulating it to reveal its deep knowledge.    

  Well enough of my ego talking. I do want to get at an understanding of possibility spaces, information and its relationship not only physics but also our social mind. 

  All the best my dear Howard and my beloved Pauvre Materialists, 
  Eric 
  -- 
  Dr. Eric Werner, FLS 
 Oxford Advanced Research Foundation 
 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RflDMx0NzkLovBfN2MsQsYXSONWsHZbPgfti8F0H9--dwKB6xOr8pYXJfDNU5w26RFZ79OvA8oBw1_ebCA$  
  On 3/20/25 4:35 AM, Sudip Patra wrote:

 Interesting. In standard frames also information and entropy are conceptualized differently, like in engeering and thermodynamics, subtle differences. 
  Get  Outlook for Android  From: Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
 Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:54:09 AM
 To: Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>; Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com>; Sudip Patra <spatra at jgu.edu.in>
 Cc: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>; 1 <ktpeil at outlook.com>; Peter Erdi <peter.erdi at kzoo.edu>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>; joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>; Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Daniel Boyd <daniel.boyd at live.nl>
 Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism      could i please repeat the definition of information in my book The God Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates: 

  information is anything a receiver can interpret  

  how do we know if a receiver has interpreted?  by the receiver's response.  unless it's an animal or a human and keeps that response to itself. 
  two things that are not useful in understanding information, in my opinion, are quantum physics and the entropy equation. 
  with warmth and oomph--howard
      On Wednesday, March 19, 2025 at 10:30:07 PM EDT, Sudip Patra <spatra at jgu.edu.in> wrote:    

     Also, as it's emerging, in quantum-like cognition literature, there are analogies and subtle differences between quantum and cognitive processes. Both are non Boolean certainly. But more general frameworks are required. 
  Regards Sudip  
  Get  Outlook for Android   From: Sudip Patra <spatra at jgu.edu.in>
 Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2025 7:28:46 AM
 To: Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>; Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com>
 Cc: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>; 1 <ktpeil at outlook.com>; Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>; joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>; Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Daniel Boyd <daniel.boyd at live.nl>; Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
 Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism     Dear All, 
  Quantum mechanics is a very curious case where new information is created when 'measurement' happens, it's inherently a contextual theory. However our attempt is to make sense of evolving possibility space itself, which challenges formal system description. 
  Regards Sudip  
  Get  Outlook for Android  From: Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
 Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2025 5:36:48 AM
 To: Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com>
 Cc: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>; Sudip Patra <spatra at jgu.edu.in>; 1 <ktpeil at outlook.com>; Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>; joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>; Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Daniel Boyd <daniel.boyd at live.nl>; Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
 Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism     Dear Stu, 1. It is only in some particular calculation that one assumes one knows all the possibilities in a quantum mechanical situation, or in any physical situation. This is variable and depends on present theory, knowledge and experiment. 2. Mathematical structures are as open to invention as are natural structures. The whole point of Goedel’s Theorem is that we have to give up the idea that everything is carried out in some fixed formal system. We are allowed to keep inventing, conjuring or jury rigging new formalities, new games, new relationships, to the limits of our ability to invent and discover. 3. Therefore all arguments about limits to mathematical structure are off the table.  4. The question then is - what lies beyond the bounds of any description? Best, Lou 

 -- 
  Dr. Eric Werner, FLS 
 Oxford Advanced Research Foundation 
 https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RflDMx0NzkLovBfN2MsQsYXSONWsHZbPgfti8F0H9--dwKB6xOr8pYXJfDNU5w26RFZ79OvA8oBw1_ebCA$  

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__________________________Howard BloomThe Howard Bloom Institutehttps://howardbloom.instituteAuthor of: The Case of the Sexual Cosmos: Everything You Know About Nature is Wrong, coming March, 2025 ("A massive achievement, WOW!"  Richard Foreman, MacArthur Genius Award Winner, Officer of the Order of Arts & Letters, France)Previous books: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker),The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic),  The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild! Wonderful!” Timothy Leary),The Mohammed Code (“A terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media),Einstein, Michael Jackson & Me: a Search  for Soul in the Power Pits of Rock & Roll ("Amazing. The writing is revelatory." Freddy DeMann, manager of Michael Jackson and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York Weekly Times 
A Quartz Magazine ProProfessor of Practice, Kepler Space University Co-founder, The Asian Space Technology SummitFormer Visiting Scholar, Graduate Psychology Department, New York University, Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Founder: International Paleopsychology Project. Founder, Space Development Steering Committee.  Member Of Board Of Governors, National Space Society. Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society. Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project.
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