[Fis] Fwd: Re: Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism--(Eric's)
Pedro C. Marijuán
pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com
Thu Mar 20 22:44:35 CET 2025
-------- Mensaje reenviado --------
Asunto: Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of materialism
Fecha: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 12:23:33 +0100
De: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>
Organización: OARF.org
Para: Sudip Patra <spatra at jgu.edu.in>, Howard Bloom
<howlbloom at aol.com>, Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>, Stuart Kauffman
<stukauffman at gmail.com>, fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
CC: Peter Erdi <peter.erdi at kzoo.edu>, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
<joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>, Gordana Dodig Crnkovic
<gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>, Daniel Boyd <daniel.boyd at live.nl>
The role of definitions and information in theory construction
Dear Howard and Pauvre Materialists,
My "mishmash", as you describe it, was invitation to an open discussion
about the concept of possibility and its role in the foundations of
physics and more. It leads me to suspect you did not understand either
the motives or how concepts involved relate to one another. Let me
briefly clarify:
* It was an invitation to reason about the concept of possibility
underpinning quantum mechanics with regular physics.
* When I discussed with friends in Africa on the foundations of
physics, linguistics, the role of intention and its representation
in the brain, it was a back and forth with the hope of making
progress. So it is my intention with fis. To lay bare the open ended
questions and reasoning. That is an essential process in theory
construction.
* Creating new theories, requires openness to different ways of
looking at things, a back-and-forth. It means questioning with the
willingness to learn.
Definitions
* If I define plus as minus then I can prove that 1+1 is zero. It
looks surprising and catches attention, but it misses the point. So
it is with your definition of information it does not capture some
essential properties of the concept such as how information can
incrementally increase.
* One classic definition is: Information is that which adds to a
representation. It is good, but fails for information states that do
not have a common core.
* A definition needs to capture the properties of what it defines
* Your definition lets you to claim all kinds of things that don’t
necessarily match reality. I have not read your book but I suspect
that your definition of information may have led you astray.
AI its use and misuse
* By the way using Claude AI to have a deep discussion does not mean
that I am not aware of its statistical bedrock. On the other hand
you, perhaps unwittingly, took advantage of that and bullied poor
ChatGPT to give traditional answers that fit your views.
* In contrast, I used Claude to have an open discussion not forcing
it, rather stimulating it to reveal its deep knowledge.
Well enough of my ego talking. I do want to get at an understanding of
possibility spaces, information and its relationship not only physics
but also our social mind.
All the best my dear Howard and my beloved Pauvre Materialists,
Eric
--
/Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XyrjhShGBQp-UcyvJm59TXLT1IqHCGkNv-lHApf9PPtwEtGQrush36QdnqrDMdAihVwLylMv-DzxZwWmrKnO767QR8td$
/
On 3/20/25 4:35 AM, Sudip Patra wrote:
> Interesting.
> In standard frames also information and entropy are conceptualized
> differently, like in engeering and thermodynamics, subtle differences.
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XB1xw_es1fIO1PBIo0KvtDFSfpnc8Hu0YrGzH3q0LEujGJpDSYBnjSax3kNB9x2hdTSuVVch_4KbZiPHbztb_2A$>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 8:54:09 AM
> *To:* Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>; Stuart Kauffman
> <stukauffman at gmail.com>; Sudip Patra <spatra at jgu.edu.in>
> *Cc:* Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>; 1 <ktpeil at outlook.com>;
> Peter Erdi <peter.erdi at kzoo.edu>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>; Gordana Dodig
> Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Daniel Boyd
> <daniel.boyd at live.nl>
> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The
> Irreality of materialism
> could i please repeat the definition of information in my book The God
> Problem: How a Godless Cosmos Creates:
>
> information is anything a receiver can interpret
>
>
> how do we know if a receiver has interpreted? by the receiver's
> response. unless it's an animal or a human and keeps that response to
> itself.
>
> two things that are not useful in understanding information, in my
> opinion, are quantum physics and the entropy equation.
>
> with warmth and oomph--howard
> On Wednesday, March 19, 2025 at 10:30:07 PM EDT, Sudip Patra
> <spatra at jgu.edu.in> wrote:
>
>
> Also, as it's emerging, in quantum-like cognition literature, there
> are analogies and subtle differences between quantum and cognitive
> processes. Both are non Boolean certainly.
> But more general frameworks are required.
>
> Regards Sudip
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XB1xw_es1fIO1PBIo0KvtDFSfpnc8Hu0YrGzH3q0LEujGJpDSYBnjSax3kNB9x2hdTSuVVch_4KbZiPHbztb_2A$>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Sudip Patra <spatra at jgu.edu.in>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 7:28:46 AM
> *To:* Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>; Stuart Kauffman
> <stukauffman at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>; 1 <ktpeil at outlook.com>;
> Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>; Gordana Dodig
> Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Daniel Boyd
> <daniel.boyd at live.nl>; Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The
> Irreality of materialism
> Dear All,
>
> Quantum mechanics is a very curious case where new information is
> created when 'measurement' happens, it's inherently a contextual theory.
> However our attempt is to make sense of evolving possibility space
> itself, which challenges formal system description.
>
> Regards Sudip
>
> Get Outlook for Android
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XB1xw_es1fIO1PBIo0KvtDFSfpnc8Hu0YrGzH3q0LEujGJpDSYBnjSax3kNB9x2hdTSuVVch_4KbZiPHbztb_2A$>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 20, 2025 5:36:48 AM
> *To:* Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>; Sudip Patra
> <spatra at jgu.edu.in>; 1 <ktpeil at outlook.com>; Peter Erdi
> <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>;
> joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>; Gordana Dodig
> Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Daniel Boyd
> <daniel.boyd at live.nl>; Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com>
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Fis] Emotional Contagion? -The Irreality of
> materialism
> Dear Stu,
> 1. It is only in some particular calculation that one assumes one
> knows all the possibilities in a quantum mechanical situation, or in
> any physical situation. This is variable and depends on present
> theory, knowledge and experiment.
> 2. Mathematical structures are as open to invention as are natural
> structures. The whole point of Goedel’s Theorem is that we have to
> give up the idea that everything is carried out in some fixed formal
> system. We are allowed to keep inventing, conjuring or jury rigging
> new formalities, new games, new relationships, to the limits of our
> ability to invent and discover.
> 3. Therefore all arguments about limits to mathematical structure are
> off the table.
> 4. The question then is - what lies beyond the bounds of any description?
> Best,
> Lou
>
--
/Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XyrjhShGBQp-UcyvJm59TXLT1IqHCGkNv-lHApf9PPtwEtGQrush36QdnqrDMdAihVwLylMv-DzxZwWmrKnO767QR8td$
/
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