[Fis] The Information definition as it is in the General Information Theory (GIT)

Jason Hu jasonthegoodman at gmail.com
Tue Mar 11 19:07:51 CET 2025 

Dear Karl,

I agree. No measurement, no science. However, measurement can start from
very primitive to very sophisticated, and many layers in between. The great
leader of North Korea, Kim the Fat Boy, was once named the top
mathematician in the world. How come? He proved that 1+1=1. How?  One drop
of water plus another drop of water equals "a bigger drop of water," but
still a drop of water. What do you say?

In fact, I like the new definition of "science" (see attached slide)
because it seems more comprehensive than the previous definitions.
"Systemics" starts from the perception of more than one "element,"
"Cybernetics" starts from more than one link of causality, and
"Informatics" starts from measuring something neither "thing" nor "energy"
but just "differences that make a difference." In all these cases, there is
a seat for "numbers" - the difference is just how sophisticated your
numbers can be case by case.

Yes, science struggles to distinguish truth from false. However, please
remember that our world today consists of many, many tons of "falses" - a
lot of them existing in Popperian World III and many of our own World IIs,
that you have to deal with. Here is the JJH Therom Number IV: Many false
cases are part of our reality or our world as-is, and we have to live with
them no matter whether we like them or not. You cannot get rid of them
before you can clean up all those dirty trash cities as clean as those
beautiful small Japanese towns.

And, talking about numbers directly hit the issue of cognitive capability,
which is NOT equal in our humans, but a bell-curve. So numbers won't work
for everyone. Two cavemen were competing who was smarter. One said, "one!",
the other said "two!" the first said "three!", the second said after
thinking hard for awhile: "you won!" Remember McCulloch's paper "what is a
number..."?

I may run out my quote this week so you won't get any "difference that
makes a difference" from me at least before next week. Have fun!

Best - Jason
[image: JJH Unified View for Three Sister Fields Cyb-Sys-Info Short
version.jpg]

On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 9:23 AM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Jason : would "begin our explorations" not begin with
>
> "so, let us see what the numbers say."
>
> Remember, if it doesn't add up, it is evidently false.
> If we have a valid theory of <whatever>, it will definitely add up.
>
> So, one of the methods is to massage the numbers until one finds a
> relation that can be translated into human speech, referring to concepts
> made by humans.
>
> Give the numbers a chance.
>
> Best
> Karl
>
> Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com> schrieb am Di., 11. März 2025, 17:13:
>
>> Dear Krassimir and deal all,
>>
>> Whether or not something in the conceptual territory is erroneous or not,
>> depends on if consensus about it exists or not - and if yes, consensus
>> among whom - how large is the community holding that consensus.
>> Unfortunately, in human history and in the evolution of civilization,
>> things are always less ideal.
>>
>> Perhaps due to my poor English, I used the word "something"(some thing)
>> in the Beethoven story not accurately. A better word if existing, should be
>> "someform." (some form). Some "form" from Beethoven's head managed to pass
>> a long chain of transformations (carried by many different type of
>> "things") but successfully landed in your brain "unchanged" - that all
>> people who heard Beethoven agree. I was trying to highlight the concept of
>> isomorphy, which is a foundational concept for all system
>> sciences/cybernetics/informatics.
>>
>> Indeed, Shannon didn't talk about "inthingation", but "in-form-ation"
>> because it is not a thing but a form. Lou must be delighted because he has
>> been discussing Law of Form for a long time. Not matter, not energy, but
>> only pure form. Not Lou's ropes, but the abstract "knots."
>>
>> Recently at Club of Remy a group effort about developing a curriculum has
>> refocused from "cybernetics 101" to "SCI 101", where SCI stands for
>> Systemics-Cybernetics-Informatics. The three sister fields can do better
>> unifying together - one cannot just do one without mentioning the other two
>> anyway.
>>
>> Note "SCI" happens to be (less than) half of the word "Science," the rest
>> "ENCE" can stand for Experimentation, Naming hypothesis,
>> Communicate-Converse-Consensus-Coordination-Creation, &
>> Engineering-Embodiment-Empowerment. So my guess is your concern is for
>> these later elements, but we can also focus on Systems, Cybernetics, and
>> Information to begin our explorations.
>>
>> Best regards - Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 3:54 PM Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Jason,
>>>
>>> Your letter is interesting, but it contains two erroneous assumptions.
>>>
>>> 1. The clergy are the bearers of certain cultural mental models that
>>> govern the organization of the masses of people, maintaining the
>>> homeostasis of society. They govern a large part of the population and thus
>>> influence the existence of ethnicities. They follow models that are not
>>> subject to verification, and therefore there is no reason to enter into
>>> discussions with them or other scientific interactions! And, of course,
>>> there is no need to dismiss them!
>>>
>>> 2. The assumption that something is transmitted during information
>>> interaction is deeply erroneous, but thanks to Shannon it is widely
>>> accepted. This is also evident from your letter. Apparently, superficial
>>> reading prevents understanding what is happening.
>>> The answer to your question “In the above 10 steps, what on earth is
>>> this “something” that is transmitted from one form to another... material
>>> or immaterial, or both, or neither?”
>>> The answer is “neither!”
>>> Pencho Slaveykov, a Bulgarian poet from the early 20th century, said:
>>> “The speaker does not convey his thought to the listener, but his sounds
>>> and performances provoke the listener’s thought.
>>> Between them, a process takes place like the lighting of a candle, where
>>> the flame of the first candle does not transmit to another flame, but only
>>> provokes it.”
>>> A more extensive explanation of this will be given in my speech “The Key
>>> Role of Information Interaction” at the IS4SI 2025 Summit in June.
>>>
>>> This is my second post this week, so I will continue in 7 days.
>>> With respect,
>>> Krassimir
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TD8ZFlyWiE6DRHfRBCltmM2s1A6rS40Gdor_ydJM9Cd15LBia_zYxe9rMgt4osPAjrXFeblt862JaLEkC51p3zqFeteK$>
>>> Virus-free.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VJEktQgsIWkkoqnUxkQxoSomp87YuwNwmFCeMWocMA_uR4aZzIrTySphcp85CzUNapa9bTB99UVb7hWCk7jXThZDtmJL$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TD8ZFlyWiE6DRHfRBCltmM2s1A6rS40Gdor_ydJM9Cd15LBia_zYxe9rMgt4osPAjrXFeblt862JaLEkC51p3zqFeteK$>
>>> <#m_-5133086821065888253_m_4352087730501822149_m_-9120208648173515539_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>>> На пн, 10.03.2025 г. в 18:17 Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com>
>>> написа:
>>>
>>>> Dear Krassimir,
>>>>
>>>> Your principle is interesing, but, are you going to fire all the
>>>> priests and pastors and clergymen and preachers...and all their Bible Study
>>>> Group heads? 😁😁😁
>>>> Re the topic of materiality versus immateriality, consider this
>>>> scenario:
>>>>
>>>>    1. Something emerges within the brain of Beethoven.
>>>>    2. He grabbed his music sheets and wrote something on them.
>>>>    3. Those sheets were sent to a publisher.
>>>>    4. The published scores were bought by a group of musicians.
>>>>    5. The musicians fussed around with their instruments according to
>>>>    those scores.
>>>>    6. Their instruments caused the air in the hall to vibrate like
>>>>    crazy.
>>>>    7. The air in the hall strikes your eardrum.
>>>>    8. The neurons in your ear send electric pulses to your brain.
>>>>    9. Your brain caused your skin to show some goosebumps.
>>>>    10.  And in your brain emerges a thought... ah ah, Beethoven!
>>>>
>>>> In the above 10 steps, what on earth is that "thing" being passed from
>>>> one form to another... material or immaterial, or both, or neither?
>>>> Best - Jason
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 5:01 AM Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Marcus,
>>>>> Thank you for your words and your willingness to develop our ideas
>>>>> together. I like to work with colleagues when I have free time for this.
>>>>> Such collaboration usually gives good results. As an example, I can cite my
>>>>> collaboration with Mark Burgin, which led to the creation of a dual theory
>>>>> of mine, which naturally complements it by presenting a model that further
>>>>> develops the Theory of Reflections.
>>>>> Unfortunately, this year is too busy for me to be able to devote time
>>>>> to in-depth collaboration. There are many scientific events coming up, at
>>>>> the center of which I am also, and this prevents me from concentrating on
>>>>> systematic collaboration.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Howard,
>>>>> You introduced your mental model by saying:
>>>>> “if information and mental models are configurations of material
>>>>> things--neurons--then the configurations are yet another example of the
>>>>> material power of immaterial things.
>>>>> The configurations are immaterial."
>>>>>
>>>>> There are two approaches to mental models - religious and scientific.
>>>>> In the first, it is enough to believe in order to perceive them, while
>>>>> in the second, experimental data are needed. I adhere to the scientific
>>>>> approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you do not have such data and/or cannot give at least an example
>>>>> showing the immateriality of configurations, then your model belongs to
>>>>> religion.
>>>>> The colleagues on the FIS list know my principle well -
>>>>> "Belief should be believed, not discussed!"
>>>>> Therefore, if you do not have scientific arguments, we will have to
>>>>> stop there.
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect,
>>>>> Krassimir
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WT2Fc9fFrRKjIKUeuxHJKfd0b2ywOHuYv3vtXnqgYKu1mEMFJPrqgddwC861WVXdn1a5Ync0Hbv7dFyl-cs$>
>>>>> Virus-free.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VJEktQgsIWkkoqnUxkQxoSomp87YuwNwmFCeMWocMA_uR4aZzIrTySphcp85CzUNapa9bTB99UVb7hWCk7jXThZDtmJL$ 
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WT2Fc9fFrRKjIKUeuxHJKfd0b2ywOHuYv3vtXnqgYKu1mEMFJPrqgddwC861WVXdn1a5Ync0Hbv7dFyl-cs$>
>>>>> <#m_-5133086821065888253_m_4352087730501822149_m_-9120208648173515539_m_-3101575389990656074_m_4290274843470237242_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>>
>>>>> На пн, 10.03.2025 г. в 1:57 Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com> написа:
>>>>>
>>>>>> interesting thoughts, krassimir.  well worth pondering.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> one note.  if information and mental models are configurations of
>>>>>> material things--neurons--then the configurations are yet another example
>>>>>> of the material power of immaterial things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  The configurations are immaterial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, March 9, 2025 at 05:04:16 AM EDT, Krassimir Markov <
>>>>>> itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Howard,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "... but I’m curious to hear your reason for not using information as
>>>>>> the term for all immaterial mysteries."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is my answer:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *The Information definition as it is in the General Information
>>>>>> Theory (GIT)*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We perceive (reflect) *reality* through our sensors, after which *reflections
>>>>>> (data) *pass through the sensory memory and enter the temporary
>>>>>> memory of the brain. It is here that our consciousness has already prepared
>>>>>> a corresponding mental model loaded from long term memory
>>>>>> (Information Expectation,” IE”), through which we will recognize the
>>>>>> data. Only after data is recognized and connected to the information
>>>>>> expectation, the data, together with the part of the IE with which it
>>>>>> is connected (*meaning*!), are perceived as information. That is,
>>>>>> only at this stage, we will have mental model, which is
>>>>>> “information”. In other words, *information is* *data with meaning*.
>>>>>> The information may be stored in the long term memory as a new mental model
>>>>>> (usually called “*knowledge*”).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If data is equal to the IE no new mental model is created (it is
>>>>>> already “known” data).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If there is no mental model to be used for IE, the consciousness
>>>>>> tries to create a new one (a new concept!) or remember the data as
>>>>>> unrecognized, for example, as is the case with UFOs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The same process may exist based on internal (self-) reflection. I.e.
>>>>>> some mental models may be compared to another and as result a new mental
>>>>>> model (*subjective information*, *a new idea*!) may be created and
>>>>>> stored in the long term (*semantic*, “knowledge”) memory of the
>>>>>> brain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, the immaterial is just a subjective mental model(s). From
>>>>>> the empty Universe through the scientific constructions, like the
>>>>>> mathematical “ideal” objects, up to the God, all are mental models in the
>>>>>> consciousness, which may be externalized using corresponding
>>>>>> languages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The mental models are absolutely material, they are neurons’
>>>>>> configurations and when the brain dies they are destroyed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With respect,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Krassimir
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VVKBW0BZWgBKlbbQkl5qfkFOaLRprAvgoxGHUSeJkIvZGfe9CWdrmblP4a-VS80Q7nJaQecc34ClRm9IbSE$>
>>>>>> Virus-free.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VJEktQgsIWkkoqnUxkQxoSomp87YuwNwmFCeMWocMA_uR4aZzIrTySphcp85CzUNapa9bTB99UVb7hWCk7jXThZDtmJL$ 
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VVKBW0BZWgBKlbbQkl5qfkFOaLRprAvgoxGHUSeJkIvZGfe9CWdrmblP4a-VS80Q7nJaQecc34ClRm9IbSE$>
>>>>>> <#m_-5133086821065888253_m_4352087730501822149_m_-9120208648173515539_m_-3101575389990656074_m_4290274843470237242_m_-4117154438458659205_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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