[Fis] The Information definition as it is in the General Information Theory (GIT)

Karl Javorszky karl.javorszky at gmail.com
Tue Mar 11 17:23:05 CET 2025 

Jason : would "begin our explorations" not begin with

"so, let us see what the numbers say."

Remember, if it doesn't add up, it is evidently false.
If we have a valid theory of <whatever>, it will definitely add up.

So, one of the methods is to massage the numbers until one finds a relation
that can be translated into human speech, referring to concepts made by
humans.

Give the numbers a chance.

Best
Karl

Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com> schrieb am Di., 11. März 2025, 17:13:

> Dear Krassimir and deal all,
>
> Whether or not something in the conceptual territory is erroneous or not,
> depends on if consensus about it exists or not - and if yes, consensus
> among whom - how large is the community holding that consensus.
> Unfortunately, in human history and in the evolution of civilization,
> things are always less ideal.
>
> Perhaps due to my poor English, I used the word "something"(some thing) in
> the Beethoven story not accurately. A better word if existing, should be
> "someform." (some form). Some "form" from Beethoven's head managed to pass
> a long chain of transformations (carried by many different type of
> "things") but successfully landed in your brain "unchanged" - that all
> people who heard Beethoven agree. I was trying to highlight the concept of
> isomorphy, which is a foundational concept for all system
> sciences/cybernetics/informatics.
>
> Indeed, Shannon didn't talk about "inthingation", but "in-form-ation"
> because it is not a thing but a form. Lou must be delighted because he has
> been discussing Law of Form for a long time. Not matter, not energy, but
> only pure form. Not Lou's ropes, but the abstract "knots."
>
> Recently at Club of Remy a group effort about developing a curriculum has
> refocused from "cybernetics 101" to "SCI 101", where SCI stands for
> Systemics-Cybernetics-Informatics. The three sister fields can do better
> unifying together - one cannot just do one without mentioning the other two
> anyway.
>
> Note "SCI" happens to be (less than) half of the word "Science," the rest
> "ENCE" can stand for Experimentation, Naming hypothesis,
> Communicate-Converse-Consensus-Coordination-Creation, &
> Engineering-Embodiment-Empowerment. So my guess is your concern is for
> these later elements, but we can also focus on Systems, Cybernetics, and
> Information to begin our explorations.
>
> Best regards - Jason
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 3:54 PM Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Jason,
>>
>> Your letter is interesting, but it contains two erroneous assumptions.
>>
>> 1. The clergy are the bearers of certain cultural mental models that
>> govern the organization of the masses of people, maintaining the
>> homeostasis of society. They govern a large part of the population and thus
>> influence the existence of ethnicities. They follow models that are not
>> subject to verification, and therefore there is no reason to enter into
>> discussions with them or other scientific interactions! And, of course,
>> there is no need to dismiss them!
>>
>> 2. The assumption that something is transmitted during information
>> interaction is deeply erroneous, but thanks to Shannon it is widely
>> accepted. This is also evident from your letter. Apparently, superficial
>> reading prevents understanding what is happening.
>> The answer to your question “In the above 10 steps, what on earth is this
>> “something” that is transmitted from one form to another... material or
>> immaterial, or both, or neither?”
>> The answer is “neither!”
>> Pencho Slaveykov, a Bulgarian poet from the early 20th century, said:
>> “The speaker does not convey his thought to the listener, but his sounds
>> and performances provoke the listener’s thought.
>> Between them, a process takes place like the lighting of a candle, where
>> the flame of the first candle does not transmit to another flame, but only
>> provokes it.”
>> A more extensive explanation of this will be given in my speech “The Key
>> Role of Information Interaction” at the IS4SI 2025 Summit in June.
>>
>> This is my second post this week, so I will continue in 7 days.
>> With respect,
>> Krassimir
>>
>>
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TD8ZFlyWiE6DRHfRBCltmM2s1A6rS40Gdor_ydJM9Cd15LBia_zYxe9rMgt4osPAjrXFeblt862JaLEkC51p3zqFeteK$>
>> Virus-free.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R0lzx6GKM3KnP9nB-Q73mVHf57ylnbcDL0EVwdk01QrmVbsloHDMY7tBvj7LNzfF_IWzLcY8_ns4N1KtkrFrib_0ykE$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TD8ZFlyWiE6DRHfRBCltmM2s1A6rS40Gdor_ydJM9Cd15LBia_zYxe9rMgt4osPAjrXFeblt862JaLEkC51p3zqFeteK$>
>> <#m_4352087730501822149_m_-9120208648173515539_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>> На пн, 10.03.2025 г. в 18:17 Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com> написа:
>>
>>> Dear Krassimir,
>>>
>>> Your principle is interesing, but, are you going to fire all the priests
>>> and pastors and clergymen and preachers...and all their Bible Study Group
>>> heads? 😁😁😁
>>> Re the topic of materiality versus immateriality, consider this scenario:
>>>
>>>    1. Something emerges within the brain of Beethoven.
>>>    2. He grabbed his music sheets and wrote something on them.
>>>    3. Those sheets were sent to a publisher.
>>>    4. The published scores were bought by a group of musicians.
>>>    5. The musicians fussed around with their instruments according to
>>>    those scores.
>>>    6. Their instruments caused the air in the hall to vibrate like
>>>    crazy.
>>>    7. The air in the hall strikes your eardrum.
>>>    8. The neurons in your ear send electric pulses to your brain.
>>>    9. Your brain caused your skin to show some goosebumps.
>>>    10.  And in your brain emerges a thought... ah ah, Beethoven!
>>>
>>> In the above 10 steps, what on earth is that "thing" being passed from
>>> one form to another... material or immaterial, or both, or neither?
>>> Best - Jason
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 5:01 AM Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Marcus,
>>>> Thank you for your words and your willingness to develop our ideas
>>>> together. I like to work with colleagues when I have free time for this.
>>>> Such collaboration usually gives good results. As an example, I can cite my
>>>> collaboration with Mark Burgin, which led to the creation of a dual theory
>>>> of mine, which naturally complements it by presenting a model that further
>>>> develops the Theory of Reflections.
>>>> Unfortunately, this year is too busy for me to be able to devote time
>>>> to in-depth collaboration. There are many scientific events coming up, at
>>>> the center of which I am also, and this prevents me from concentrating on
>>>> systematic collaboration.
>>>>
>>>> Dear Howard,
>>>> You introduced your mental model by saying:
>>>> “if information and mental models are configurations of material
>>>> things--neurons--then the configurations are yet another example of the
>>>> material power of immaterial things.
>>>> The configurations are immaterial."
>>>>
>>>> There are two approaches to mental models - religious and scientific.
>>>> In the first, it is enough to believe in order to perceive them, while
>>>> in the second, experimental data are needed. I adhere to the scientific
>>>> approach.
>>>>
>>>> If you do not have such data and/or cannot give at least an example
>>>> showing the immateriality of configurations, then your model belongs to
>>>> religion.
>>>> The colleagues on the FIS list know my principle well -
>>>> "Belief should be believed, not discussed!"
>>>> Therefore, if you do not have scientific arguments, we will have to
>>>> stop there.
>>>>
>>>> With respect,
>>>> Krassimir
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WT2Fc9fFrRKjIKUeuxHJKfd0b2ywOHuYv3vtXnqgYKu1mEMFJPrqgddwC861WVXdn1a5Ync0Hbv7dFyl-cs$>
>>>> Virus-free.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R0lzx6GKM3KnP9nB-Q73mVHf57ylnbcDL0EVwdk01QrmVbsloHDMY7tBvj7LNzfF_IWzLcY8_ns4N1KtkrFrib_0ykE$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WT2Fc9fFrRKjIKUeuxHJKfd0b2ywOHuYv3vtXnqgYKu1mEMFJPrqgddwC861WVXdn1a5Ync0Hbv7dFyl-cs$>
>>>> <#m_4352087730501822149_m_-9120208648173515539_m_-3101575389990656074_m_4290274843470237242_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>
>>>> На пн, 10.03.2025 г. в 1:57 Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com> написа:
>>>>
>>>>> interesting thoughts, krassimir.  well worth pondering.
>>>>>
>>>>> one note.  if information and mental models are configurations of
>>>>> material things--neurons--then the configurations are yet another example
>>>>> of the material power of immaterial things.
>>>>>
>>>>>  The configurations are immaterial.
>>>>>
>>>>> with warmth and oomph--howard
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, March 9, 2025 at 05:04:16 AM EDT, Krassimir Markov <
>>>>> itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Howard,
>>>>>
>>>>> You wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "... but I’m curious to hear your reason for not using information as
>>>>> the term for all immaterial mysteries."
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is my answer:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *The Information definition as it is in the General Information Theory
>>>>> (GIT)*
>>>>>
>>>>> We perceive (reflect) *reality* through our sensors, after which *reflections
>>>>> (data) *pass through the sensory memory and enter the temporary
>>>>> memory of the brain. It is here that our consciousness has already prepared
>>>>> a corresponding mental model loaded from long term memory
>>>>> (Information Expectation,” IE”), through which we will recognize the
>>>>> data. Only after data is recognized and connected to the information
>>>>> expectation, the data, together with the part of the IE with which it
>>>>> is connected (*meaning*!), are perceived as information. That is,
>>>>> only at this stage, we will have mental model, which is “information”. In
>>>>> other words, *information is* *data with meaning*. The information
>>>>> may be stored in the long term memory as a new mental model (usually called
>>>>> “*knowledge*”).
>>>>>
>>>>> If data is equal to the IE no new mental model is created (it is
>>>>> already “known” data).
>>>>>
>>>>> If there is no mental model to be used for IE, the consciousness
>>>>> tries to create a new one (a new concept!) or remember the data as
>>>>> unrecognized, for example, as is the case with UFOs.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same process may exist based on internal (self-) reflection. I.e.
>>>>> some mental models may be compared to another and as result a new mental
>>>>> model (*subjective information*, *a new idea*!) may be created and
>>>>> stored in the long term (*semantic*, “knowledge”) memory of the brain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, the immaterial is just a subjective mental model(s). From the
>>>>> empty Universe through the scientific constructions, like the mathematical
>>>>> “ideal” objects, up to the God, all are mental models in the
>>>>> consciousness, which may be externalized using corresponding
>>>>> languages.
>>>>>
>>>>> The mental models are absolutely material, they are neurons’
>>>>> configurations and when the brain dies they are destroyed.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With respect,
>>>>>
>>>>> Krassimir
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VVKBW0BZWgBKlbbQkl5qfkFOaLRprAvgoxGHUSeJkIvZGfe9CWdrmblP4a-VS80Q7nJaQecc34ClRm9IbSE$>
>>>>> Virus-free.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R0lzx6GKM3KnP9nB-Q73mVHf57ylnbcDL0EVwdk01QrmVbsloHDMY7tBvj7LNzfF_IWzLcY8_ns4N1KtkrFrib_0ykE$ 
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VVKBW0BZWgBKlbbQkl5qfkFOaLRprAvgoxGHUSeJkIvZGfe9CWdrmblP4a-VS80Q7nJaQecc34ClRm9IbSE$>
>>>>> <#m_4352087730501822149_m_-9120208648173515539_m_-3101575389990656074_m_4290274843470237242_m_-4117154438458659205_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
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> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
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