[Fis] The Information definition as it is in the General Information Theory (GIT)

Tue Mar 11 00:59:01 CET 2025

Jason, your beethoven riff is brilliant.
Krassimir, we disagree.  
clouds are collections of material things, h2o molecules.  but the molecules collect in droplets--groups with an identity any child can see.  and that immaterial form of identity recurs all over the planet.  the form of the drop.  
some societies of droplets are clouds.  and they, too, have a group identity. a distinct identity you can see.  they are separate from each other.  and each has its own outline, though that outline shifts from minute to minute, it still delineates a distinct cloud.
group identities exist as well in the cells that make up the personalities and beliefs of you and me.
those group identities persist despite the fact that you and I are replacing billions of cells every day.  and despite the fact that we've changed dramatically from babies to toddlers to children to adolescents to adults and now to senior citizens.  the matter changes but the identity stays.
what then is a group identity?  is it material or immaterial?  it's constituents change, but the identity retains its reality. and its causal power.
here's something to chew on:

called causal emergence. Emergence refers to the appearance of overall behavior in a complex system of many parts that can’t be predicted or understood by focusing just on what those parts themselves are like. That such phenomena occur is beyond doubt. You’ll never fully understand the flocking behavior—called a murmuration—of starlings by probing the workings of the avian mind at the neuronal level, nor will a detailed analysis of car mechanics enable you to decipher how traffic jams form (fig. 5.9).
Ball, Philip. How Life Works: A User’s Guide to the New Biology (p. 214). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition. 
Using a measure called “effective information” to quantify causation, the researchers searched for “informative macroscales” in the networks—situations where a group or cluster of protein-protein interactions could be replaced by a single “macro-node” in the network that does the same job as the collective. Such macro-nodes can be considered autonomous units in producing the observed outcome at the level of the phenotype. It’s a bit like dividing up a population geographically into cities and towns: these are not just arbitrary groupings, but “real things” with discrete and identifiable influences. These macro-nodes will function reliably even if there’s some variability or noise among their component parts. They become genuine causal entities that operate at a higher level of organization: agents of causal emergence.
Ball, Philip. How Life Works: A User’s Guide to the New Biology (pp. 218-219). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition. 

with warmth and oomph--howard

Dear Krassimir, 
Your principle is interesing, but, are you going to fire all the priests and pastors and clergymen and preachers...and all their Bible Study Group heads? 😁😁😁 Re the topic of materiality versus immateriality, consider this scenario:   
   - Something emerges within the brain of Beethoven.
   - He grabbed his music sheets and wrote something on them.
   - Those sheets were sent to a publisher.
   - The published scores were bought by a group of musicians.
   - The musicians fussed around with their instruments according to those scores.
   - Their instruments caused the air in the hall to vibrate like crazy.
   - The air in the hall strikes your eardrum.
   - The neurons in your ear send electric pulses to your brain.
   - Your brain caused your skin to show some goosebumps.
   -  And in your brain emerges a thought... ah ah, Beethoven!
In the above 10 steps, what on earth is that "thing" being passed from one form to another... material or immaterial, or both, or neither?Best - Jason

    On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 12:18:00 PM EDT, Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com> wrote:   

 Dear Krassimir, 
Your principle is interesing, but, are you going to fire all the priests and pastors and clergymen and preachers...and all their Bible Study Group heads? 😁😁😁 Re the topic of materiality versus immateriality, consider this scenario:   
   - Something emerges within the brain of Beethoven.
   - He grabbed his music sheets and wrote something on them.
   - Those sheets were sent to a publisher.
   - The published scores were bought by a group of musicians.
   - The musicians fussed around with their instruments according to those scores.
   - Their instruments caused the air in the hall to vibrate like crazy.
   - The air in the hall strikes your eardrum.
   - The neurons in your ear send electric pulses to your brain.
   - Your brain caused your skin to show some goosebumps.
   -  And in your brain emerges a thought... ah ah, Beethoven!
In the above 10 steps, what on earth is that "thing" being passed from one form to another... material or immaterial, or both, or neither?Best - Jason

On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 5:01 AM Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Marcus,
Thank you for your words and your willingness to develop our ideas together. I like to work with colleagues when I have free time for this. Such collaboration usually gives good results. As an example, I can cite my collaboration with Mark Burgin, which led to the creation of a dual theory of mine, which naturally complements it by presenting a model that further develops the Theory of Reflections.
Unfortunately, this year is too busy for me to be able to devote time to in-depth collaboration. There are many scientific events coming up, at the center of which I am also, and this prevents me from concentrating on systematic collaboration.

Dear Howard,
You introduced your mental model by saying:
“if information and mental models are configurations of material things--neurons--then the configurations are yet another example of the material power of immaterial things.
The configurations are immaterial."
There are two approaches to mental models - religious and scientific. In the first, it is enough to believe in order to perceive them, while in the second, experimental data are needed. I adhere to the scientific approach.
If you do not have such data and/or cannot give at least an example showing the immateriality of configurations, then your model belongs to religion.
The colleagues on the FIS list know my principle well -
"Belief should be believed, not discussed!"
Therefore, if you do not have scientific arguments, we will have to stop there.

With respect,
Krassimir

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На пн, 10.03.2025 г. в 1:57 Howard Bloom <howlbloom at aol.com> написа:

 interesting thoughts, krassimir.  well worth pondering.
one note.  if information and mental models are configurations of material things--neurons--then the configurations are yet another example of the material power of immaterial things.
 The configurations are immaterial.

with warmth and oomph--howard

    On Sunday, March 9, 2025 at 05:04:16 AM EDT, Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:   

Dear Howard,

You wrote:

"... but I’m curious to hear your reason for not using informationas the term for all immaterial mysteries."

Here is my answer:

The Information definition as it is in the GeneralInformation Theory (GIT)

Weperceive (reflect) reality through our sensors, after which reflections(data) passthrough the sensory memory and enter the temporary memory of the brain. It ishere that our consciousness has already prepared a corresponding mental model loadedfrom long term memory (Information Expectation,” IE”), through which we will recognize thedata. Only after data is recognized and connected to theinformation expectation, the data, together with the part of the IE with which it is connected (meaning!),are perceived as information. That is, only at this stage, we will have mental model,which is “information”. Inother words, information is data with meaning. Theinformation may be stored in the long term memory as a new mental model(usually called “knowledge”).

If data is equal to the IE no new mental model is created (it is already“known” data).

Ifthere is no mental model to be used for IE, the consciousness triesto create a new one (a new concept!) or remember the data as unrecognized, forexample, as is the case with UFOs.

The same process may exist based on internal (self-) reflection. I.e.some mental models may be compared to another and as result a new mental model(subjective information, a new idea!) may be created andstored in the long term (semantic, “knowledge”) memory of the brain.

Finally, the immaterial is just a subjective mental model(s). From theempty Universe through the scientific constructions, like the mathematical“ideal” objects, up to the God, all are mental models in the consciousness, which maybe externalized using corresponding languages.

The mental models are absolutely material, they are neurons’configurations and when the brain dies they are destroyed. 

With respect,

Krassimir

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__________________________Howard BloomThe Howard Bloom Institutehttps://howardbloom.instituteAuthor of: The Case of the Sexual Cosmos: Everything You Know About Nature is Wrong, coming March, 2025 ("A massive achievement, WOW!"  Richard Foreman, MacArthur Genius Award Winner, Officer of the Order of Arts & Letters, France)Previous books: The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind From The Big Bang to the 21st Century ("reassuring and sobering"-The New Yorker),The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of Capitalism ("A tremendously enjoyable book." James Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic),  The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich),How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“Wow! Whew! Wild! Wonderful!” Timothy Leary),The Mohammed Code (“A terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam.” David Swindle, PJ Media),Einstein, Michael Jackson & Me: a Search  for Soul in the Power Pits of Rock & Roll ("Amazing. The writing is revelatory." Freddy DeMann, manager of Michael Jackson and Madonna), Best Book of 2020, New York Weekly Times 
A Quartz Magazine ProProfessor of Practice, Kepler Space University Co-founder, The Asian Space Technology SummitFormer Visiting Scholar, Graduate Psychology Department, New York University, Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Founder: International Paleopsychology Project. Founder, Space Development Steering Committee.  Member Of Board Of Governors, National Space Society. Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution Society. Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project.
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