[Fis] AQI's and Reality of possibilities in superposition in quantum computing

Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz goernitz at em.uni-frankfurt.de
Wed Jan 8 14:58:37 CET 2025


  Dear Eric and all,
First a comment on reductionism.
If the cosmos begins with a very simple structure without any  
differentiation, and then in the course of cosmic evolution ever more  
complex structures and finally life and then also consciousness arise,  
then correctly understood reduction means that one should be able to  
understand this development in a meaningful explanation, i.e. through  
rules and laws.
If, in this process, one wants to adhere to the millennia-old idea  
that the basis for all this explanation should be some kind of matter  
(i.e. structures with rest mass), then one will reach an  
insurmountable threshold at the latest when it comes to consciousness.
This difficulty can be overcome by understanding, with the help of  
quantum theory, that the smallest material particles are formed as  
special structures from quantum information. The associated  
mathematical structures have been published for a long time.
In this way, the door to consciousness is no longer closed. Because  
consciousness as a property and process of a living brain is also a  
structure of quantum information.
In the context of this discussion, it should be remembered that rules  
and laws require similarity or equality. However, in an expanding,  
continuously changing cosmos, equality does not exist at all in a very  
strict view.
Therefore, every natural science is an approximation of nature. In  
this process, unimportant and uninteresting aspects are ignored.
The practical applications show how well and successfully this  
recording of natural processes through natural laws has already been  
achieved.
Nevertheless, we must always remain open to the possibility that in  
some situations what was previously ignored may become important.
Dear Eric, to answer your questions regarding the term “space”, it is  
first important to clearly distinguish between the spatial location in  
which all objects are located and the mathematical and abstract  
Hilbert space of the states that an object can occupy.
The group theory and the associated representation theory provide the  
key to these questions.
The set of states of an AQI corresponds to the elements of its  
symmetry group SU(2). All other states can be reached from a state by  
applying the symmetry group transformations. (The fact that the  
symmetry group U(1), i.e. a phase factor, is added to this only  
becomes important in the context of time).
The group SU(2) is geometrically a S^3, so the three-dimensional  
surface of a 4-dimensional unit sphere. This S^3 is the mathematical  
model of the space of locations, so the three-dimensional cosmic space.
The SU(2) is used in physics, for example, for the treatment of spin.  
There are different spins: 0, 1/2, 1, 3/2 and so on. Each of these  
different spins corresponds to a specific irreducible representation  
of SU(2): spin 0 has a 1-dimensional representation, spin 1/2 has a  
2-dimensional representation, spin 1 has a 3-dimensional  
representation and so on.
(Irreducible means that every vector can be transformed into every  
other vector of the representation by a symmetry transformation. This  
is no longer the case with a decomposable representation. It consists,  
so to speak, of a sum of separate parts.)
The square-integrable complex-valued functions over this space, over  
the S^3, form an infinite-dimensional Hilbert space.
 From a group-theoretical point of view, this Hilbert space is the  
space of the so-called “regular representation” of the SU(2). (This  
construction applies to compact groups.)
Each irreducible representation of the group is present in a subspace  
of this Hilbert space, and it is present as many times as its  
dimension. (So the 1-dimensional representation is present once, the  
2-dimensional representation twice, and so on.)
If we choose a simple analogy, the one-dimensional representation  
could be compared to e^(iφ), the two-dimensional to e^(2iφ), the  
three-dimensional to e^(3iφ), and so on. So, shorter and shorter  
wavelengths and thus stronger and stronger localization are possible.
When two quantum structures interact, the possible states that arise  
in this process are captured by the tensor product of the state spaces  
of the substructures. Such a tensor product can then be reduced to  
irreducible representations.
(Written as spins: Spin ½ interaction with spin ½ => spin 1 and spin 0)
Cosmic development begins with an AQI, a quantum of action.  
Observation shows that the cosmos is expanding. This can be translated  
as: the number of AQIs is growing. More and more AQIs mean the tensor  
product of more and more two-dimensional representations. These can be  
decomposed into irreducible representations, which enable increasingly  
precise localization in space-time. There are more and more functions  
with ever shorter wavelengths.
Thus, with more and more AQIs, an ever-finer subdivision of the  
spatial domain is possible. Since the AQIs as quantum structures  
themselves mean possibilities, a wavelength should be chosen as the  
smallest length unit that can still be defined “as factually  
treatable”. We define this quantity as the Planck length.
When the tensor product of N AQIs is decomposed, the multiplicities of  
the irreducible representations change only slightly up to a value of  
2√N. After that, they drop exponentially.[i][1], [ii][2]
So when wavelengths almost no longer occur in the decomposition of the  
tensor product, then these lengths should no longer be treated as  
factually achievable.
The thesis of an expansion of space only makes sense if it is compared  
to a distance that is defined as unchangeable. In 1972, Weizsäcker  
used the Compton wavelength of the proton for this purpose. For  
cosmology, it makes more sense to choose the Planck length [10^( - 33)  
cm] instead.
In Planck coordinates, the three fundamental constants of nature – the  
quantum of action h for quantum theory, the speed of light c for the  
special theory of relativity, and the gravitational constant G for the  
general theory of relativity – each have the numerical value of 1. (A  
change in these natural constants would mean that these three tried  
and tested and fundamental theories would have to be profoundly  
changed. A change in h is incompatible with quantum theory, a change  
in the speed of light c destroys the mathematical structure of the  
special theory of relativity, and a change in the gravitational  
constant G would fundamentally change the general theory of  
relativity. [The speed of light is currently interpreted as the  
maximum speed for all real processes in space-time. Its limit does not  
affect the decomposition of correlations in quantum entities, nor does  
it affect an expansion of space-time itself, as is currently advocated  
in mainstream cosmology.])
The number of parameters used has always played an important role in  
cosmology. The reason why Copernicus' model was rejected for so long  
was that the observed data could be described much better with the  
parameters determined from the observations, the Ptolemaic epicycles,  
than with Copernicus' model.
For a fundamental consideration, it is therefore obvious to introduce  
as few parameters as possible. There is an anecdote about Dyson's  
encounter with Fermi.
Dyson asked Fermi what he thought of the fitted curves.[iii][3]
“In desperation I asked Fermi whether he was not impressed by the  
agreement between our calculated numbers and his measured numbers. He  
replied, 'How many arbitrary parameters did you use for your  
calculations?' I thought for a moment about our cut-off procedures and  
said, 'Four.' He said, 'I remember my friend Johnny von Neumann used  
to say, with four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I  
can make him wiggle his trunk.' With that, the conversation was over.”
A fundamental quantity in cosmology is known as the Hubble constant  
H0. In general, it is referred to as the Hubble parameter H. The  
designation H0 as a constant is historically very well explainable. It  
was introduced as a fixed measure of the speed of the galaxies'  
movement away from each other in relation to their distance.
Today, it is rarely made clear that H0 is the reciprocal of the  
current age of the universe, both in terms of dimension as well as  
numerical value. Of course, the current age of the universe is a  
constant, but it goes without saying that the age of the universe is  
an ever-increasing period of time.
The dimension of H0 as (kilometers per second) per megaparsec relates  
a velocity to a distance: the greater the distance (in megaparsecs)  
between two galaxies (at rest in space), the faster (in km/s) they fly  
apart (because the space between them expands).
In this process, it should be emphasized that the lengths can be  
reduced and only an inverse time remains!
The fact that there is certainly still a lot to be clarified in  
understanding the Hubble parameter and in its measurements is evident  
from the so-called Hubble tension. The most precise measurement  
results of H0 are currently such that their error bars do not overlap.
For about three decades, various parameters have been introduced under  
the buzzwords dark matter, dark energy and cosmological constant,  
which can then be used to calculate an age of the universe that  
differs from the reciprocal of the Hubble constant H0. These are  
referred to as phases of delayed and accelerated expansion.
However, if one averages over these phases, a value results that fits  
well with a constant expansion at the speed of light c and thus with  
H0 as the inverse of the age of the universe.
Within the framework of the general theory of relativity, such an  
expansion at c forces the precise equation of state that necessarily  
results from the theory of AQIs using the first law of thermodynamics.
Using the Kerr solution, i.e. a rotating black hole, it can then be  
shown that the precise anomalies in the rotational curves of galaxies  
for which dark matter was invented result.[iv][4] So far, there is no  
evidence for any of the postulated dark matter particles.
Interesting works show that from the observed rotation curves of  
galaxies, one can infer exactly such an equation of state for the  
cosmic content, which corresponds to AQI cosmology. [v][5], [vi][6]
Your question, dear Eric, about the problem of interaction, can be  
solved with AQI theory.
Primarily, the AQIs create a part-less wholeness.
We observe density fluctuations in all quantum phenomena. For example,  
the impact events behind a double slit appear as interference strips  
with higher and lower densities.
Since the AQIs are quantum structures, density fluctuations can also  
be expected for them.
Gravity arises as a result of density fluctuations of the AQIs in the  
cosmos.[vii][7]
Gravity causes dense structures to become more massive and less dense  
areas to become even emptier.
This leads first to very early black holes, as they are now being  
discovered with the James Webb Telescope. Physical reasons such as the  
Eddington limes argue against the possibility that they could have  
formed at this speed from matter with a rest mass.
Thus, distances arise between separate objects and only with that the  
possibility for a definition of interaction.
Quantum interaction can begin with a mathematical definition of  
particles. Since Wigner, this has been done in Minkowski space by  
means of irreducible representations of the Poincaré group. Such  
representations for massless and massive quantum particles could be  
constructed with the AQIs.[viii][8], [ix][9]
The mathematical structures that follow from the AQIs necessarily  
imply that the free motion of a particle in Minkowski space is changed  
by interactions. The mathematical structure then allows for the  
precise three quantum gauge interactions with the gauge groups U(1),  
SU(2) and SU(3), i.e. with the electromagnetic, weak and strong  
interactions. [x][10]
The three gauge-interactions require the introduction of three  
invariant charges. The three invariant charges are the basis for three  
stable elementary particles with a rest mass: neutrino, electron and  
proton. Then there is the photon as a stable particle with no charge  
and no rest mass. In addition, the strong interaction is used to  
create stable atomic nuclei.
Everything else that can be created from them in nature or in  
experiments decays more or less quickly into these four particles, the  
famous Higgs particle within 10^( - 22) seconds.
 From the part of the AQIs that form into particles with rest mass,  
more complex structures can then form, i.e. atoms, molecules, solid  
bodies.
Only the properties of objects with rest mass can become a permanent  
source of information. Again, only photons can transport these  
properties between sender and receiver, even if, as with sound,  
material objects such as air molecules occur as intermediate stages.
(The propagation of sound in the form of air pressure is based on an  
electromagnetic interaction between air molecules.) Not only computers  
and quantum computers work electromagnetically, but so do all  
processes in biological structures.
This has already been very well described by physics and, based on  
that, by chemistry and finally by biology.
Thus, a scientific, i.e. a non-dualistic description of nature became  
possible, in which the foundation of information has also made it  
possible to access biological processes and consciousness.
Then everything that can be contributed by sciences such as topology,  
logic and cybernetics, for example, becomes important.


-------------------------
   [i][11] Görnitz T (1988) Connections between Abstract Quantum  
Theory and Space-Time Structure, II. A Model of Cosmological  
Evolution, International Journal of Theoretical Physics Vol. 27, 659
   [ii][12] Görnitz T, Schomäcker U (2021) Quantumbit Cosmology  
explains Effects of Rotation Curves of Galaxies, Foundations of  
Science, https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1007/s10699-021-09808-y__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VkhskKTEgs8BkESp1Zgvji44spSjTo3b0Ud-pO4mitAJd_5aXUZDE6DjiSlNCEy4haO1tLLFLZdPR5Wq-9_DakaFOddISg$ 
   [iii][13] Dyson F (2004) A conversation with Fermi, Nature, 427, 297
   [iv][14] Matos T, Núñez D, Guzmán F S, Ramírez E (2002) Geometric  
Conditions on the Type of Matter Determining the Flat Behavior of the  
Rotational Curves in Galaxies, General Relativity and Gravitation, 34,  
283-305
   [v][15] Rahaman, F, Nandi, K K, Bhadra, A, Kalam, M, Chakraborty,  
K, (2010) Perfect fluid dark matter, Physics Letters B, 694, 10 – 15
   [vi][16] Rahaman, F, Kuhfittig, P K F, Chakraborty, K, Kalam, K,  
Hossain, D (2011) Modelling galactic halos with predominantly  
quintessential matter, Int.J.Theor.Phys.50: 2655 – 2665
   [vii][17] Görnitz T (2011) Deriving General Relativity from  
Considerations on Quantum Information, Advanced Science Letters, Vol.  
4, 577–585, 2011
   [viii][18] Görnitz T, Graudenz D, Weizsäcker C F v (1992) Quantum  
Field Theory of Binary Alternatives, International Journal of  
Theoretical Physics, Vol. 31, No. 2
   [ix][19] Görnitz T, Schomäcker U (2012) Quantum Particles From  
Quantum Information, J. Phys.: Conf. Ser. 380 012025  
(https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/380/1/012025__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VkhskKTEgs8BkESp1Zgvji44spSjTo3b0Ud-pO4mitAJd_5aXUZDE6DjiSlNCEy4haO1tLLFLZdPR5Wq-9_DakbKLCNjTA$ )
   [x][20] Görnitz T, Schomäcker U (2016): The Structures of  
Interactions: How to Explain the Gauge Groups U(1), SU(2) and SU(3).  
Foundations of Science. 24. ISSN 1233-1821, S. 1–23,  
doi:10.1007/s10699-016-9507-6

Quoting Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>:

> Dear Thomas,
>
> Let me first thank you for participating. Many in FIS may not know  
> that you are one of the world's top mathematical physicists who  
> works on  the information-theoretic foundations of cosmology and  
> consciousness. A grand effort initiated by von Weizsäcker (correct  
> me if I'm wrong) with his theory of Ur, the primordial bits of  
> information that were to provide a new foundation for physics. This  
> work predated Wheeler's "Its from Bits" by over a decade.  You, von  
> Weizsäcker's colleague, continued that work by formalizing many of  
> his ideas, in particular, formalizing Ur's to AQIs.
>
> The questions I have surround the theme of how the can complex, yet  
> nonrandom structure of the universe arise from randomized  
> interactions of simple units.
>
> Your answer seems at the core to rely on interactions by way of the  
> tensor product of AQIs (2-dimensional quantum objects in a Hilbert  
> space). The tensor product allows the escape from 2-dimensions to  
> higher dimensions, indeed a vast higher dimensional structure I  
> shall call UQI (for Universe based on quantum information).
>
> One fundamental problem is that the actual universe has the  
> dimensions of space and time. There is no guarantee that the  
> dimension expansion  generated by the tensor product should generate  
> space and time dimensions. Thus your theory seems to rely on an  
> interpretative system that gives pragmatic spatial and temporal  
> meaning to the dimensions of UQI. Such a meta-framework would rely  
> on additional independent assumptions.
>
> Even if we accept the external additional assumption of a  
> meta-framework, a dimensional interpretative system, there is still  
> the problem of randomness. The combinatorics of AQIs implies that  
> most structures (UQIs) so generated are Kolmogorov random, meaning  
> irreducible to ordering laws.
>
> So either combinations of AQIs never realize a spatial-temporal  
> universe UQI or if they do, then the universe UQI so generated is  
> hopelessly random and lawless.
>
> Best,
>
> Eric
>  
>   On 1/4/25 7:01 PM, Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>> My heartfelt thanks go to Josef, who implicitly points out to me  
>> that I was much too brief in my explanations.
>> I do not mean the AQIs are so abstract that they are merely  
>> nothing. An AQI is a mathematically clearly defined quantum  
>> structure, and the simplest one that can be imagined.
>> The AQIs share the property of possible existence with matter and  
>> energy primarily as quantum structures. Some material particles  
>> also only exist virtually, such as quarks and gluons. Nevertheless,  
>> virtual particles can produce real effects, as can virtual photons.  
>> And of course, real material particles and real photons also exist.
>> Quantum theory is the area of natural science that makes it clear  
>> that mere possibilities can also produce real actions.
>> In everyday life, this is completely evident to us humans when, for  
>> example, we speculate on the stock market, play the lottery or take  
>> an umbrella with us based on the weather forecast.
>> In the case of a “possible existence”, Josef's remark comes into  
>> play: “they exist and do not exist at the same time".
>> An AQI exists in the sense that it can cause real actions. At the  
>> same time, it does not exist in the sense that it should be  
>> understood as a fact. Objects, for example, that appear to us as  
>> reality or electromagnetic waves, whose emission and reception can  
>> be registered as facts, can be designated as real.
>> Quantum theory, as a theory of possibilities, is based, as Josef  
>> says, on a non-Boolean logic.
>> Quantum theory can also be characterized as the physics of wholes  
>> or the emergence of new phenomena. This is based on the  
>> mathematical structure of the tensor product. In this process, the  
>> dimensions of the state spaces of parts are multiplicatively  
>> combined when a whole is formed.
>> The essential effect of the mathematical structure of quantum  
>> theory is the appearance of new properties in a totality, for which  
>> there was no possible indication whatsoever in the parts from which  
>> it was formed.
>> In physics, it makes sense for pragmatic reasons to distinguish  
>> between matter, energy and information.
>> Matter has rest mass and can therefore remain in a certain area of  
>> space for a certain period of time. Matter is inert and localized.  
>> Objects are formed from it. Objects can appear to be factual.
>> Energy is the entity that is able to change the state of matter,  
>> for example its motion or its form. Thus, in the central impact of  
>> two billiard balls, the property of motion is transferred from the  
>> impacting ball to the ball that is hit. The first ball remains  
>> still and the second ball continues to move.
>> In everyday life, energy usually appears as kinetic energy, i.e. as  
>> a property of matter, as movement.
>> For over a century, energy has also been known to exist in a form  
>> in which it is not bound to any matter, namely electromagnetic  
>> radiation, i.e. real photons.
>> A meaningful piece of information is one that can cause a reaction,  
>> or the absence of a reaction, in a living being. Living beings are  
>> localizable forms of matter, so information that can have an effect  
>> on a living being requires a material carrier, and an energetic  
>> carrier for transmission from the source to the living being.
>> For all living things, the absorption of information is a process  
>> of electromagnetic interaction. This is trivial for seeing, but it  
>> also applies equally to hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and so  
>> on. Through the interaction with real photons (Hertzian waves) and  
>> virtual ones (Coulomb force), information about properties is  
>> transferred from a material carrier to photons and from there to  
>> the recipient, the living being.
>> In physics, we have learned to measure unknown or uninteresting  
>> information, i.e. information without a clear meaning. We start  
>> with a model, for example of particles, to which we assign the  
>> possibility of a location and a velocity. We then specify a  
>> framework, for example a particle number, a volume and a total  
>> energy. Then you can calculate which states are possible in this  
>> system. This unknown amount of information becomes the entropy of  
>> the system. However, if, for example, the particles have a  
>> structure and thus more degrees of freedom, if they are complicated  
>> molecules, then with an improved model the entropy also changes. In  
>> this sense, entropy is always relative, i.e. based on certain  
>> conditions and assumptions.
>> Now, within the framework of the general theory of relativity,  
>> there are structures that have a horizon, black holes. Of these  
>> objects, we can only know their electric charge, their angular  
>> momentum and, above all, their mass. Anything else that could be  
>> imagined about their possible internal states is, in principle,  
>> unknowable from the outside.
>> As Jakob Bekenstein showed, such objects therefore have an entropy  
>> that exceeds everything previously conceivable by many orders of  
>> magnitude.
>> With entropy, we therefore know the orders of magnitude of the  
>> amount of information hidden inside a black hole. At the same time,  
>> however, it is impossible to make a meaningful statement about the  
>> specific states to which this information could refer.
>> If, in a thought experiment, we could observe the cosmos from the  
>> outside like a black hole, then we could deduce the amount of  
>> trapped total information from the trapped total energy.
>> At any given time, the amount of total information in the cosmos is  
>> equal to the amount of AQIs.
>> This means that at any given time, the maximum amount of possible  
>> information in the cosmos can be estimated. Some of this quantum  
>> information in the cosmos will form into what we reasonably call  
>> matter. Another part will form into what we call energy, or  
>> photons. Yet another smaller part of it we will call properties of  
>> matter or properties of photons.
>> Such properties can be exchanged between matter and photons and  
>> trigger energies provided in living beings, thus producing actions.
>> Information that can produce actions can be said to be meaningful.
>> In my perception, all possible definitions of information refer to  
>> what is referred to here as meaningful information.
>> Therefore, the term “protyposis” stands for a quantum structure  
>> that can be mathematically described as a quantum bit, but to which  
>> no concrete meaning can yet be assigned, which in this sense can be  
>> described as meaning-free, as abstract.
>> The AQIs have the complete two-dimensional complex-valued state  
>> space of quantum theory. The fundamental inclusion of imaginary  
>> numbers fundamentally distinguishes them from the quantum bits in  
>> quantum computing. There, with the Bloch sphere, the bits have a  
>> two-dimensional state space only over the real numbers.
>> From the point of view of natural science, the basis of matter and  
>> energy is an absolute, i.e. still meaning-free, quantum information.
>> This is still a challenging thesis, even though the relevant  
>> calculations have long been published in peer-reviewed journals.
>> Possible ideas are facilitated if one realizes that quantum theory  
>> has already shown something to be incompatible, such as an object  
>> and its property, specifically matter and motion, to be equivalent  
>> and thus convertible into one another.
>> E=mc^2 was discovered in the context of special relativity, but the  
>> inevitable appearance of antimatter in these processes shows that  
>> it is a quantum phenomenon.
>> With the large accelerators, matter can now be converted into  
>> motion and motion into matter on Earth. This suggests that the two  
>> are based on something in common.
>> Particles with a rest mass, as well as photons without a rest mass,  
>> have an infinite-dimensional space of states. This is an indication  
>> of a very complex structure. The simplest quantum structures, on  
>> the other hand, have a two-dimensional space of states.
>> The mathematical structure of quantum theory makes it possible to  
>> understand how we can go from such AQIs to construct structures  
>> with properties such as those of particles, which – such as a rest  
>> mass, for example – are not accessible to the AQIs alone.
>> If the simplest quantum structure, an AQI, has the smallest  
>> possible action, that of an action quantum h, then it can, of  
>> course, also be assigned a value for energy. Since action is  
>> defined as energy multiplied by time and the relevant time is the  
>> age of the cosmos, the energy of an AQI must also be time-dependent.
>> Thus, depending on the respective cosmic time, an AQI has the  
>> smallest energy possible from a physics point of view. Quantum  
>> theory shows that the smallest energy can be assigned the largest  
>> possible wavelength.
>> With many AQIs, more and more energy can be localized better and better.
>> About 10^41 AQIs can form a proton. To form a hypothetical Planck  
>> particle with a diameter of 10^(- 35) m, 10^61.5 AQIs are necessary.
>> As Beckenstein has shown, only one bit of entropy is possible in  
>> such a minimal black hole. All the remaining 10^61.5 AQIs that form  
>> such a Planck particle cannot be called entropy. They relate to the  
>> accessible theoretical information about the localization of this  
>> tiny object in a vast cosmos.
>> Eric pointed out the ontological aspects of information. However,  
>> the term ontology is understood somewhat differently in computer  
>> science than in philosophy.
>> In philosophy, ontology is the study of being. Reductionism seeks  
>> to explain the existing from a fundamental and simple structure.  
>> For thousands of years, the idea of indivisible smallest particles,  
>> from Greek ἄτομον (uncuttable, indivisible), was used for this.  
>> Quantum theory shows the error of this idea. Small particles are,  
>> as mentioned, highly complicated.
>> A reductionism that thinks additively is impossible for fundamental  
>> structures.
>> Quantum theory, on the other hand, operates multiplicatively with  
>> the tensor product of the state spaces from the simple to the  
>> complex.
>> Therefore, to my knowledge, it is the only scientific-mathematical  
>> theory that can explain the emergence of something new that is more  
>> and different than the sum of its parts.
>> In this form of an explanation of the complex from the simplest  
>> structures, “emergence” is implicitly mathematically built in from  
>> the outset.
>> Once again, best wishes for 2025 for everyone
>> Thomas
>>
>> Quoting joe.brenner at bluewin.ch:
>>
>>> Dear Eric,
>>>
>>> You deserve the credit and our thanks for your first paragraph,  
>>> especially your formulations as questions. Since they apparently  
>>> lead to absurdities (discontinuities), though, is not the solution  
>>> to change the interpretation based on aspects of quantum  
>>> computation?
>>>
>>> In the 2nd paragraph, one needs to avoid the "Richard Rorty" error  
>>> that everything is relative.
>>>
>>> I like your 3rd paragraph, but not the last sentence, because I  
>>> think, especially in informational terms, we should talk about  
>>> processes rather than "things". Then I think we can say with more  
>>> confidence that the composition (structure) of a thing (process)  
>>> is somewhat dependent on its form, giving form the more dynamic  
>>> interpretation or role that it has, for example, in Eastern thought.
>>>
>>> Your last sentence is thus right on, and we can envision a minimal  
>>> ontological bridging between even arithmetic and its results.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>> Le 01.01.2025 17:12 CET, Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org>[21] a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> Happy New Year and let it be a peaceful year!
>>>>
>>>> But intellectual peace can lead to boredom, so let's get into  
>>>> some conflicts of ideas.
>>>>
>>>> Joseph, you or Leibniiz are getting at a fundamental problem in  
>>>> how quantum computation on set of possible states which if they  
>>>> were real of miminal Planck size would take up more space than is  
>>>> available in the Universe. So they cannot be real in the sense of  
>>>> taking up space. If not spatially real can they be temporally  
>>>> real? Or will it take more time than the age of the universe to  
>>>> operate on those possibilities? If so then they are not  
>>>> temporally real.
>>>>
>>>> Thomas and Karl:  In terms of meaning in the real world of humans  
>>>> and animals meaning seem to be relative to the subject-agent when  
>>>> messages act on and transform the representational state of the  
>>>> agent-receiver-subject be it his or her information state,  
>>>> intentional state or evaluate-emotional state.
>>>>
>>>> In effect, one might call these levels of ontology where  
>>>> information is relative to the level of ontology of the  
>>>> observer-agent. The information at one level of ontology can be  
>>>> independent of  the information at a lower or higher level of  
>>>> ontology. In other words, reductionism does not seem to hold for  
>>>> ontological levels. The composition of a thing is somewhat if not  
>>>> totally independent of its form.
>>>>
>>>> So to the process of arithmetic can be different from the result.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>> On 1/1/25 4:13 PM, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch  
>>>> mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Thomas and All,
>>>>> Happy New Year!
>>>>>
>>>>> I apologize to Pedro and Krassimir for coming back to the  
>>>>> Jason/Thomas dialogue but I believe the following point is a  
>>>>> critical one:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thomas wrote:
>>>>> These quantum structures with a two-dimensional Hilbert space  
>>>>> are to be thought of as absolute and completely abstract, not as  
>>>>> properties
>>>>> of a material or energetic structure. I call them AQIs. The AQIs  
>>>>> form matter, energy, as well as the properties of matter and  
>>>>> energy.
>>>>>
>>>>> It it seems to me this position runs into a Leibniz "bind": if  
>>>>> AQI's are completely abstract, how can they form anything, let  
>>>>> alone matter/energy with which they do not share properties? To  
>>>>> the extent that quanta are quanta of energy, is it then correct  
>>>>> to call them AQI's?  In your response to Jason, you make it  
>>>>> clear that this is not the case. The AQI's are units of action,  
>>>>> but my comment still holds.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only solution I see is to adopt a principle that All have  
>>>>> never explicitly accepted, namely that, AQI's are and are not  
>>>>> abstract; they exist and do not exist at the same time.  
>>>>> Understood in this way, they could form a basis for reality and  
>>>>> its non-Boolean logic, now with apologies to Louis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you anyway,
>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Dear Dr. Goernitz,
>>>>> > Can AQI exist independently from its context - or some larger  
>>>>> structure (matter or energy)? By "exist," I mean stability with  
>>>>> a relevant longer time.
>>>>> > By "longer time," I mean in the range of human perception,  
>>>>> even with the help of cognitive instruments. Just curious.
>>>>> > Best regards - Jason
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Dec 30, 2024 at 2:00 AM Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz  
>>>>> <goernitz at em.uni-frankfurt.de  
>>>>> mailto:goernitz at em.uni-frankfurt.de>[22] wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > Dear All,
>>>>> > > I would like to start by wishing everyone a healthy, successful and
>>>>> > > hopefully more peaceful new year.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Now a few comments from me on the current contributions, regarding
>>>>> > > information and meaning.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Natural science seeks rules and laws for the processes in nature.
>>>>> > > However, due to the expansion of the cosmos, there are never two
>>>>> > > completely identical situations. For an individual case, however, the
>>>>> > > idea of a rule is meaningless.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Rules require similarity, laws require – not only in  
>>>>> jurisprudence – equality.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Similarity and equality arise from sweeping what appears to be
>>>>> > > insignificant in the situations under consideration under the carpet.
>>>>> > > Changes to inanimate matter require the expenditure of energy, but
>>>>> > > living things can also be influenced by meaningful information.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Scientific explanation starts from simple structures to explain
>>>>> > > complicated structures.
>>>>> > > Chemistry explains the biochemical basis of life. Quantum mechanics
>>>>> > > provides the theoretical basis for chemistry.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > The simplest quantum structures that are mathematically possible have
>>>>> > > only a two-dimensional state space. It therefore makes sense to call
>>>>> > > them quantum bits.
>>>>> > > The particles of quantum mechanics and, with that, the quantum field
>>>>> > > theories can be constructed from these structures.
>>>>> > > This means that matter can be understood as a special form of such
>>>>> > > quantum bits.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > It has been known for some time that quantum theory relativizes
>>>>> > > distinctions that are important for everyday life. E=mc^2 shows the
>>>>> > > equivalence of matter with motion, i.e. with one of its properties.
>>>>> > > The distinction between force and matter is reduced to the  
>>>>> distinction
>>>>> > > between fermions and bosons, which can be converted into one another
>>>>> > > under certain conditions.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > These quantum structures with a two-dimensional Hilbert space are to
>>>>> > > be thought of as absolute and completely abstract, not as properties
>>>>> > > of a material or energetic structure. I call them AQIs.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > The AQIs form matter, energy, as well as the properties of  
>>>>> matter and energy.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Life only emerged relatively late in the development of the cosmos,
>>>>> > > and only for living things can something become meaningful.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Quoting Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com  
>>>>> mailto:karl.javorszky at gmail.com>[23]:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > > Again, one wonders.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > Marcus writes:
>>>>> > > >  you also invoke ‘meaning’ which is notoriously difficult  
>>>>> to define – where
>>>>> > > > do you clearly define meaning?
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > >  There is a perfectly valid definition of meaning  
>>>>> available for all who
>>>>> > > > have access to the FIS list.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > The last time this définition was shared with the Learned  
>>>>> Friends was 21
>>>>> > > > days ago, 9th December 2024, in a letter to Xueshan.
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > *Information has been defined (eg Liaisons Among Symbols)  
>>>>> as the totality
>>>>> > > > of ∆ (n?, n!).*
>>>>> > > >
>>>>> > > > *Meaning has been defined (op. cit.) as the relation of a  
>>>>> context to at
>>>>> > > > least one of the Central Elements.*
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz
>>>>> > > Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF INFORMATION STUDIES
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Privat (für Postsendungen):
>>>>> > > Karl-Mangold-Str. 13
>>>>> > > D-81245 München
>>>>> > > Tel: 0049-89-887746
>>>>> > >  
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://goernitzunderstandingquantumtheory.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Twd5A-cSLW8XBCnqHSJSmnpnRgk8TzmugecCjfUIUl15bOVeXlewBLt5Z82oDgMW23D9dJVIhIcotYDJNuXxBAlvzbWnJw$%5B24%5D
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Fachbereich Physik
>>>>> > > J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo  
>>>>> gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>>>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus  
>>>>> datos en el siguiente enlace:  
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>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
>>>> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SY5RFrMFCMp2uWAkXwn_QCe6JpY9FEy6O6eh4cCM2VqgAgSIAB1yGtuSwQ79cNXgFALwlBRxjTsVpWfsUQhyHlDXZMAxhw$%5B25%5D   
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xhz0IvhgOe-yPY1gwPY6Gj8VLdLnbuosxjBMI5stUTafCU504r_Sp6gQrRkEviuyBgkZ3DajsSXilVk5j8ly7Vg$%5B26%5D
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Fis mailing list
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>>>> ----------
>>>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>>>
>>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo  
>>>> gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos  
>>>> en el siguiente enlace:  
>>>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>>>> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede  
>>>> darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo  
>>>> desee.
>>>> http://listas.unizar.es
>>>> ----------
>>>>  
>>
>> Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz
>> Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF INFORMATION STUDIES
>>
>> Privat (für Postsendungen):
>> Karl-Mangold-Str. 13
>> D-81245 München
>> Tel: 0049-89-887746
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://goernitzunderstandingquantumtheory.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SY5RFrMFCMp2uWAkXwn_QCe6JpY9FEy6O6eh4cCM2VqgAgSIAB1yGtuSwQ79cNXgFALwlBRxjTsVpWfsUQhyHlDzKnm48A$%5B27%5D
>> Fachbereich Physik
>> J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fis mailing list
>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> ----------
>> INFORMACIN SOBRE PROTECCIN DE DATOS DE CARCTER PERSONAL
>>
>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo  
>> gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>> Puede encontrar toda la informacin sobre como tratamos sus datos en  
>> el siguiente enlace:  
>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>> Recuerde que si est suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse  
>> de baja desde la propia aplicacin en el momento en que lo desee.
>> http://listas.unizar.es
>> ----------
>
>   --
> /Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org*28*__;W10!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VkhskKTEgs8BkESp1Zgvji44spSjTo3b0Ud-pO4mitAJd_5aXUZDE6DjiSlNCEy4haO1tLLFLZdPR5Wq-9_DakY8IVp_Gg$  /
>
>  



Links:
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[6] #_edn6
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[11] #_ednref1
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[16] #_ednref6
[17] #_ednref7
[18] #_ednref8
[19] #_ednref9
[20] #_ednref10
[21] mailto:eric.werner at oarf.org
[22] mailto:goernitz at em.uni-frankfurt.demailto:goernitz at em.uni-frankfurt.de
[23] mailto:karl.javorszky at gmail.commailto:karl.javorszky at gmail.com
[24]  
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[27]  
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[28]  
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Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz
Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF INFORMATION STUDIES

Privat (für Postsendungen):
Karl-Mangold-Str. 13
D-81245 München
Tel: 0049-89-887746
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Fachbereich Physik
J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main
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