[Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)

Tue Jan 7 23:58:14 CET 2025

Dear All,
In anticipation of Lou’s talk, I made this attempt to put Lou’s ideas in context of other authors.
I have some questions too, but I save them for after the lecture on Friday.

All the best,
Gordana

Comparing Lou Kauffman, John Wheeler, Heinz von Foerster, and Douglas Hofstadter reveals common themes of recursion, self-reference, and the role of observers in constructing reality, but their approaches and emphases differ based on their disciplinary focuses.

1. Disciplinary Context
Aspect
Lou Kauffman
John Wheeler
Heinz von Foerster
Douglas Hofstadter
Field
Mathematics, Cybernetics, Biology
Theoretical Physics
Cybernetics and Systems Theory
Cognitive Science and Philosophy
Key Concern
Formalization of recursion and self-reference
Information and the participatory nature of reality
Observing systems, recursion, constructivism
Consciousness, creativity, and self-referential loops

2. Core Ideas
Aspect
Kauffman
Wheeler
Von Foerster
Hofstadter
Recursion
Formalizes recursion using eigenforms, knot theory, and distinctions.
Recursion appears in quantum phenomena and the iterative actualization of reality.
Recursion underpins feedback loops and system dynamics.
Recursion is central to "strange loops" that generate consciousness.
Self-Reference
Eigenforms model systems observing themselves mathematically.
Observers influence reality through self-referential acts of measurement.
Observers construct themselves within systems through reflexivity.
Self-referential loops create the sense of "I."
Information
Encodes recursion and biological replication processes mathematically.
Reality arises from information (bits) processed through observation.
Information is a feedback-driven construct of observers.
Information transforms into meaning through recursive cognitive structures.
Observer’s Role
Observer is implicit in the mathematics of self-reference and recursion.
Observer "creates" reality by participating in quantum processes.
Observer is embedded in systems, shaping reality through distinctions.
Observer is a recursive entity, defined by strange loops.

3. Philosophical Orientation
Aspect
Kauffman
Wheeler
Von Foerster
Hofstadter
Ontology
Self-reference and recursion are universal principles underlying biological and logical systems.
Reality is informational and participatory, emerging through observation.
Reality is constructed by observers, with no objective existence outside distinctions.
Reality and identity emerge from recursive cognitive processes.
Epistemology
Knowledge arises through formal systems modeling distinctions and recursion.
Knowledge is observer-dependent, grounded in informational interactions.
Observers generate knowledge through recursive observation and feedback.
Knowledge is emergent, shaped by cognitive and symbolic recursion.
Human-Centeredness
Focuses on universal principles; less anthropocentric.
Anthropocentric in framing the universe as participatory.
Embeddedness of observers is central but not anthropocentric.
Deeply human-centered, exploring how recursion shapes human thought.

4. Commonalities and Differences
Commonalities
Recursion and Self-Reference
All four thinkers see recursion and self-reference as central to understanding systems, whether biological (Kauffman, von Foerster), physical (Wheeler), or cognitive (Hofstadter).
Role of Observers
The observer is integral in shaping reality across all frameworks, whether mathematically (Kauffman), quantum-mechanically (Wheeler), operationally (von Foerster), or cognitively (Hofstadter).
Information as a Core Concept
Each thinker places information at the heart of their theories, though interpreted differently (as formal systems for Kauffman, quantum bits for Wheeler, operational constructs for von Foerster, and cognitive patterns for Hofstadter).

Differences
Focus on Biology
Kauffman and von Foerster deeply engage with biological systems, while Wheeler and Hofstadter primarily use them as metaphors.
Mathematical Formalism
Kauffman emphasizes rigorous mathematical modeling, whereas von Foerster and Hofstadter lean toward conceptual approaches, and Wheeler bridges the two with quantum theory.
Scope of Inquiry
Kauffman seeks universal principles spanning biology and mathematics. Wheeler focuses on the cosmos. Von Foerster centers on systems and constructivism. Hofstadter is more focused on human consciousness and cognition.

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 23:41
To: Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)

Dear Krassimir and others,

It seems to me that I should not have sent all those papers!
I offer a talk on these matters this Friday, Noon Chicago time.

Title: Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics
Speaker: Louis H Kauffman

Time: Noon, Chicago time. Friday, January 10, 2025

Join Zoom Meeting
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SSCB-8E4kgyFSZVKvSDfI76DIF2yUKw1NgPXbFl6z6HO-1q_sRgzao89gMvg18W6keBX3qgsdCCZd4S1UKriPJRpL9VxVpqf$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XdwZRY8ylgw5YoRAg_UFqz2_YVnj6IuLdZAV5CZ5Soh8UtJCpiC0Fj4PFGk_aENf8x4ysT_KT6hs25dX$>

Meeting ID: 480 917 5166
Passcode: 0rw2GP

Best,
Lou

On Jan 7, 2025, at 1:50 PM, Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com<mailto:itheaiss at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Plamen,
I take your note on multidimensionality as something very important.
In this regard, I would like to note that multidimensionality is inherent in our everyday life.
I myself designed and participated in the implementation of an industrial information system that has been operating for 30 years and is used for multidimensional modeling of business processes. At its core lies a system for operating with an infinitely-dimensionally numbered information space, i.e. data is stored on the basis of coordinate vectors with a variable and practically unlimited length.
This is truly another world!

Dear Lou,
First of all, I would like to note that I, like Plamen, need time to familiarize myself with and complete the difficult "homework" that was assigned to us. At the moment, I am very carefully and in depth reading "Self-Reference, Biologic and the Structure of Reproduction". But these are 71 pages, and I have to familiarize myself with more text. However, I already have two topics in mind that I would like us to talk about:
1. Multidimensional languages and systems for modeling biological entities and processes.
2. Information at the quantum level.
There will probably be something else...

With respect,
Krassimir

[Image removed by sender.]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XIIUo2kCPEBwmLwjlHRotwgnUns6gELu_I0pResJZh2wE8BNVdCtgB0QRCXULAOMCwPQ__llEBJpzU5cfpA$>
Virus-free.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SSCB-8E4kgyFSZVKvSDfI76DIF2yUKw1NgPXbFl6z6HO-1q_sRgzao89gMvg18W6keBX3qgsdCCZd4S1UKriPJRpLzjw_HFm$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XIIUo2kCPEBwmLwjlHRotwgnUns6gELu_I0pResJZh2wE8BNVdCtgB0QRCXULAOMCwPQ__llEBJpzU5cfpA$>
_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
----------
INFORMACI�N SOBRE PROTECCI�N DE DATOS DE CAR�CTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la informaci�n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
Recuerde que si est� suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci�n en el momento en que lo desee.
http://listas.unizar.es
----------

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20250107/9c2cf998/attachment-0001.html>