[Fis] AQI's and Reality of possibilities in superposition in quantum computing
Eric Werner
eric.werner at oarf.org
Mon Jan 6 10:11:02 CET 2025
Dear Thomas,
Let me first thank you for participating. Many in FIS may not know that
you are one of the world's top mathematical physicists who works on the
information-theoretic foundations of cosmology and consciousness. A
grand effort initiated by von Weizsäcker (correct me if I'm wrong) with
his theory of Ur, the primordial bits of information that were to
provide a new foundation for physics. This work predated Wheeler's "Its
from Bits" by over a decade. You, von Weizsäcker's colleague, continued
that work by formalizing many of his ideas, in particular, formalizing
Ur's to AQIs.
The questions I have surround the theme of how the can complex, yet
nonrandom structure of the universe arise from randomized interactions
of simple units.
Your answer seems at the core to rely on interactions by way of the
tensor product of AQIs (2-dimensional quantum objects in a Hilbert
space). The tensor product allows the escape from 2-dimensions to higher
dimensions, indeed a vast higher dimensional structure I shall call UQI
(for Universe based on quantum information).
One fundamental problem is that the actual universe has the dimensions
of space and time. There is no guarantee that the dimension expansion
generated by the tensor product should generate space and time
dimensions. Thus your theory seems to rely on an interpretative system
that gives pragmatic spatial and temporal meaning to the dimensions of
UQI. Such a meta-framework would rely on additional independent
assumptions.
Even if we accept the external additional assumption of a
meta-framework, a dimensional interpretative system, there is still the
problem of randomness. The combinatorics of AQIs implies that most
structures (UQIs) so generated are Kolmogorov random, meaning
irreducible to ordering laws.
So either combinations of AQIs never realize a spatial-temporal universe
UQI or if they do, then the universe UQI so generated is hopelessly
random and lawless.
Best,
Eric
On 1/4/25 7:01 PM, Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz wrote:
> Dear all,
> My heartfelt thanks go to Josef, who implicitly points out to me that
> I was much too brief in my explanations.
> I do not mean the AQIs are so abstract that they are merely nothing.
> An AQI is a mathematically clearly defined quantum structure, and the
> simplest one that can be imagined.
> The AQIs share the property of possible existence with matter and
> energy primarily as quantum structures. Some material particles also
> only exist virtually, such as quarks and gluons. Nevertheless, virtual
> particles can produce real effects, as can virtual photons. And of
> course, real material particles and real photons also exist.
> Quantum theory is the area of natural science that makes it clear that
> mere possibilities can also produce real actions.
> In everyday life, this is completely evident to us humans when, for
> example, we speculate on the stock market, play the lottery or take an
> umbrella with us based on the weather forecast.
> In the case of a “possible existence”, Josef's remark comes into play:
> “they exist and do not exist at the same time".
> An AQI exists in the sense that it can cause real actions. At the same
> time, it does not exist in the sense that it should be understood as a
> fact. Objects, for example, that appear to us as reality or
> electromagnetic waves, whose emission and reception can be registered
> as facts, can be designated as real.
> Quantum theory, as a theory of possibilities, is based, as Josef says,
> on a non-Boolean logic.
> Quantum theory can also be characterized as the physics of wholes or
> the emergence of new phenomena. This is based on the mathematical
> structure of the tensor product. In this process, the dimensions of
> the state spaces of parts are multiplicatively combined when a whole
> is formed.
> The essential effect of the mathematical structure of quantum theory
> is the appearance of new properties in a totality, for which there was
> no possible indication whatsoever in the parts from which it was formed.
> In physics, it makes sense for pragmatic reasons to distinguish
> between matter, energy and information.
> Matter has rest mass and can therefore remain in a certain area of
> space for a certain period of time. Matter is inert and localized.
> Objects are formed from it. Objects can appear to be factual.
> Energy is the entity that is able to change the state of matter, for
> example its motion or its form. Thus, in the central impact of two
> billiard balls, the property of motion is transferred from the
> impacting ball to the ball that is hit. The first ball remains still
> and the second ball continues to move.
> In everyday life, energy usually appears as kinetic energy, i.e. as a
> property of matter, as movement.
> For over a century, energy has also been known to exist in a form in
> which it is not bound to any matter, namely electromagnetic radiation,
> i.e. real photons.
> A meaningful piece of information is one that can cause a reaction, or
> the absence of a reaction, in a living being. Living beings are
> localizable forms of matter, so information that can have an effect on
> a living being requires a material carrier, and an energetic carrier
> for transmission from the source to the living being.
> For all living things, the absorption of information is a process of
> electromagnetic interaction. This is trivial for seeing, but it also
> applies equally to hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and so on.
> Through the interaction with real photons (Hertzian waves) and virtual
> ones (Coulomb force), information about properties is transferred from
> a material carrier to photons and from there to the recipient, the
> living being.
> In physics, we have learned to measure unknown or uninteresting
> information, i.e. information without a clear meaning. We start with a
> model, for example of particles, to which we assign the possibility of
> a location and a velocity. We then specify a framework, for example a
> particle number, a volume and a total energy. Then you can calculate
> which states are possible in this system. This unknown amount of
> information becomes the entropy of the system. However, if, for
> example, the particles have a structure and thus more degrees of
> freedom, if they are complicated molecules, then with an improved
> model the entropy also changes. In this sense, entropy is always
> relative, i.e. based on certain conditions and assumptions.
> Now, within the framework of the general theory of relativity, there
> are structures that have a horizon, black holes. Of these objects, we
> can only know their electric charge, their angular momentum and, above
> all, their mass. Anything else that could be imagined about their
> possible internal states is, in principle, unknowable from the outside.
> As Jakob Bekenstein showed, such objects therefore have an entropy
> that exceeds everything previously conceivable by many orders of
> magnitude.
> With entropy, we therefore know the orders of magnitude of the amount
> of information hidden inside a black hole. At the same time, however,
> it is impossible to make a meaningful statement about the specific
> states to which this information could refer.
> If, in a thought experiment, we could observe the cosmos from the
> outside like a black hole, then we could deduce the amount of trapped
> total information from the trapped total energy.
> At any given time, the amount of total information in the cosmos is
> equal to the amount of AQIs.
> This means that at any given time, the maximum amount of possible
> information in the cosmos can be estimated. Some of this quantum
> information in the cosmos will form into what we reasonably call
> matter. Another part will form into what we call energy, or photons.
> Yet another smaller part of it we will call properties of matter or
> properties of photons.
> Such properties can be exchanged between matter and photons and
> trigger energies provided in living beings, thus producing actions.
> Information that can produce actions can be said to be meaningful.
> In my perception, all possible definitions of information refer to
> what is referred to here as meaningful information.
> Therefore, the term “protyposis” stands for a quantum structure that
> can be mathematically described as a quantum bit, but to which no
> concrete meaning can yet be assigned, which in this sense can be
> described as meaning-free, as abstract.
> The AQIs have the complete two-dimensional complex-valued state space
> of quantum theory. The fundamental inclusion of imaginary numbers
> fundamentally distinguishes them from the quantum bits in quantum
> computing. There, with the Bloch sphere, the bits have a
> two-dimensional state space only over the real numbers.
> From the point of view of natural science, the basis of matter and
> energy is an absolute, i.e. still meaning-free, quantum information.
> This is still a challenging thesis, even though the relevant
> calculations have long been published in peer-reviewed journals.
> Possible ideas are facilitated if one realizes that quantum theory has
> already shown something to be incompatible, such as an object and its
> property, specifically matter and motion, to be equivalent and thus
> convertible into one another.
> E=mc^2 was discovered in the context of special relativity, but the
> inevitable appearance of antimatter in these processes shows that it
> is a quantum phenomenon.
> With the large accelerators, matter can now be converted into motion
> and motion into matter on Earth. This suggests that the two are based
> on something in common.
> Particles with a rest mass, as well as photons without a rest mass,
> have an infinite-dimensional space of states. This is an indication of
> a very complex structure. The simplest quantum structures, on the
> other hand, have a two-dimensional space of states.
> The mathematical structure of quantum theory makes it possible to
> understand how we can go from such AQIs to construct structures with
> properties such as those of particles, which – such as a rest mass,
> for example – are not accessible to the AQIs alone.
> If the simplest quantum structure, an AQI, has the smallest possible
> action, that of an action quantum h, then it can, of course, also be
> assigned a value for energy. Since action is defined as energy
> multiplied by time and the relevant time is the age of the cosmos, the
> energy of an AQI must also be time-dependent.
> Thus, depending on the respective cosmic time, an AQI has the smallest
> energy possible from a physics point of view. Quantum theory shows
> that the smallest energy can be assigned the largest possible wavelength.
> With many AQIs, more and more energy can be localized better and better.
> About 10^41 AQIs can form a proton. To form a hypothetical Planck
> particle with a diameter of 10^(- 35) m, 10^61.5 AQIs are necessary.
> As Beckenstein has shown, only one bit of entropy is possible in such
> a minimal black hole. All the remaining 10^61.5 AQIs that form such a
> Planck particle cannot be called entropy. They relate to the
> accessible theoretical information about the localization of this tiny
> object in a vast cosmos.
> Eric pointed out the ontological aspects of information. However, the
> term ontology is understood somewhat differently in computer science
> than in philosophy.
> In philosophy, ontology is the study of being. Reductionism seeks to
> explain the existing from a fundamental and simple structure. For
> thousands of years, the idea of indivisible smallest particles, from
> Greek ἄτομον (uncuttable, indivisible), was used for this. Quantum
> theory shows the error of this idea. Small particles are, as
> mentioned, highly complicated.
> A reductionism that thinks additively is impossible for fundamental
> structures.
> Quantum theory, on the other hand, operates multiplicatively with the
> tensor product of the state spaces from the simple to the complex.
> Therefore, to my knowledge, it is the only scientific-mathematical
> theory that can explain the emergence of something new that is more
> and different than the sum of its parts.
> In this form of an explanation of the complex from the simplest
> structures, “emergence” is implicitly mathematically built in from the
> outset.
> Once again, best wishes for 2025 for everyone
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
> Quoting joe.brenner at bluewin.ch:
>
>> Dear Eric,
>>
>> You deserve the credit and our thanks for your first paragraph,
>> especially your formulations as questions. Since they apparently lead
>> to absurdities (discontinuities), though, is not the solution to
>> change the interpretation based on aspects of quantum computation?
>>
>> In the 2nd paragraph, one needs to avoid the "Richard Rorty" error
>> that everything is relative.
>>
>> I like your 3rd paragraph, but not the last sentence, because I
>> think, especially in informational terms, we should talk about
>> processes rather than "things". Then I think we can say with more
>> confidence that the composition (structure) of a thing (process) is
>> somewhat dependent on its form, giving form the more dynamic
>> interpretation or role that it has, for example, in Eastern thought.
>>
>> Your last sentence is thus right on, and we can envision a minimal
>> ontological bridging between even arithmetic and its results.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Joe
>>
>>> Le 01.01.2025 17:12 CET, Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> a écrit :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> Happy New Year and let it be a peaceful year!
>>>
>>> But intellectual peace can lead to boredom, so let's get into some
>>> conflicts of ideas.
>>>
>>> Joseph, you or Leibniiz are getting at a fundamental problem in how
>>> quantum computation on set of possible states which if they were
>>> real of miminal Planck size would take up more space than is
>>> available in the Universe. So they cannot be real in the sense of
>>> taking up space. If not spatially real can they be temporally real?
>>> Or will it take more time than the age of the universe to operate on
>>> those possibilities? If so then they are not temporally real.
>>>
>>> Thomas and Karl: In terms of meaning in the real world of humans
>>> and animals meaning seem to be relative to the subject-agent when
>>> messages act on and transform the representational state of the
>>> agent-receiver-subject be it his or her information state,
>>> intentional state or evaluate-emotional state.
>>>
>>> In effect, one might call these levels of ontology where information
>>> is relative to the level of ontology of the observer-agent. The
>>> information at one level of ontology can be independent of the
>>> information at a lower or higher level of ontology. In other words,
>>> reductionism does not seem to hold for ontological levels. The
>>> composition of a thing is somewhat if not totally independent of its
>>> form.
>>>
>>> So to the process of arithmetic can be different from the result.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> On 1/1/25 4:13 PM, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
>>> mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch wrote:
>>>
>>> > Dear Thomas and All,
>>> > Happy New Year!
>>> >
>>> > I apologize to Pedro and Krassimir for coming back to the
>>> Jason/Thomas dialogue but I believe the following point is a
>>> critical one:
>>> >
>>> > Thomas wrote:
>>> > These quantum structures with a two-dimensional Hilbert space are
>>> to be thought of as absolute and completely abstract, not as properties
>>> > of a material or energetic structure. I call them AQIs. The AQIs
>>> form matter, energy, as well as the properties of matter and energy.
>>> >
>>> > It it seems to me this position runs into a Leibniz "bind": if
>>> AQI's are completely abstract, how can they form anything, let alone
>>> matter/energy with which they do not share properties? To the extent
>>> that quanta are quanta of energy, is it then correct to call them
>>> AQI's? In your response to Jason, you make it clear that this is
>>> not the case. The AQI's are units of action, but my comment still
>>> holds.
>>> >
>>> > The only solution I see is to adopt a principle that All have
>>> never explicitly accepted, namely that, AQI's are and are not
>>> abstract; they exist and do not exist at the same time. Understood
>>> in this way, they could form a basis for reality and its non-Boolean
>>> logic, now with apologies to Louis.
>>> >
>>> > Thank you anyway,
>>> > Joseph
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > Dear Dr. Goernitz,
>>> > > Can AQI exist independently from its context - or some larger
>>> structure (matter or energy)? By "exist," I mean stability with a
>>> relevant longer time.
>>> > > By "longer time," I mean in the range of human perception, even
>>> with the help of cognitive instruments. Just curious.
>>> > > Best regards - Jason
>>> > >
>>> > > On Mon, Dec 30, 2024 at 2:00 AM Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz
>>> <goernitz at em.uni-frankfurt.de mailto:goernitz at em.uni-frankfurt.de>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > Dear All,
>>> > > > I would like to start by wishing everyone a healthy,
>>> successful and
>>> > > > hopefully more peaceful new year.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Now a few comments from me on the current contributions,
>>> regarding
>>> > > > information and meaning.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Natural science seeks rules and laws for the processes in nature.
>>> > > > However, due to the expansion of the cosmos, there are never two
>>> > > > completely identical situations. For an individual case,
>>> however, the
>>> > > > idea of a rule is meaningless.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Rules require similarity, laws require – not only in
>>> jurisprudence – equality.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Similarity and equality arise from sweeping what appears to be
>>> > > > insignificant in the situations under consideration under the
>>> carpet.
>>> > > > Changes to inanimate matter require the expenditure of energy,
>>> but
>>> > > > living things can also be influenced by meaningful information.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Scientific explanation starts from simple structures to explain
>>> > > > complicated structures.
>>> > > > Chemistry explains the biochemical basis of life. Quantum
>>> mechanics
>>> > > > provides the theoretical basis for chemistry.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > The simplest quantum structures that are mathematically
>>> possible have
>>> > > > only a two-dimensional state space. It therefore makes sense
>>> to call
>>> > > > them quantum bits.
>>> > > > The particles of quantum mechanics and, with that, the quantum
>>> field
>>> > > > theories can be constructed from these structures.
>>> > > > This means that matter can be understood as a special form of
>>> such
>>> > > > quantum bits.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > It has been known for some time that quantum theory relativizes
>>> > > > distinctions that are important for everyday life. E=mc^2
>>> shows the
>>> > > > equivalence of matter with motion, i.e. with one of its
>>> properties.
>>> > > > The distinction between force and matter is reduced to the
>>> distinction
>>> > > > between fermions and bosons, which can be converted into one
>>> another
>>> > > > under certain conditions.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > These quantum structures with a two-dimensional Hilbert space
>>> are to
>>> > > > be thought of as absolute and completely abstract, not as
>>> properties
>>> > > > of a material or energetic structure. I call them AQIs.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > The AQIs form matter, energy, as well as the properties of
>>> matter and energy.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Life only emerged relatively late in the development of the
>>> cosmos,
>>> > > > and only for living things can something become meaningful.
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Quoting Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com
>>> mailto:karl.javorszky at gmail.com>:
>>> > > >
>>> > > > > Again, one wonders.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > Marcus writes:
>>> > > > > you also invoke ‘meaning’ which is notoriously difficult to
>>> define – where
>>> > > > > do you clearly define meaning?
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > There is a perfectly valid definition of meaning available
>>> for all who
>>> > > > > have access to the FIS list.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > The last time this définition was shared with the Learned
>>> Friends was 21
>>> > > > > days ago, 9th December 2024, in a letter to Xueshan.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > *Information has been defined (eg Liaisons Among Symbols) as
>>> the totality
>>> > > > > of ∆ (n?, n!).*
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > *Meaning has been defined (op. cit.) as the relation of a
>>> context to at
>>> > > > > least one of the Central Elements.*
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz
>>> > > > Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF INFORMATION STUDIES
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Privat (für Postsendungen):
>>> > > > Karl-Mangold-Str. 13
>>> > > > D-81245 München
>>> > > > Tel: 0049-89-887746
>>> > > >
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>>> > > >
>>> > > > Fachbereich Physik
>>> > > > J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > > _______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>> --
>>> Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
>>> Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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>>>
>>>
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>
>
>
> Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz
> Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF INFORMATION STUDIES
>
> Privat (für Postsendungen):
> Karl-Mangold-Str. 13
> D-81245 München
> Tel: 0049-89-887746
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>
> Fachbereich Physik
> J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main
>
>
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/Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
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