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<p>Dear Thomas,<br>
<br>
Let me first thank you for participating. Many in FIS may not know
that you are one of the world's top mathematical physicists who
works on the information-theoretic foundations of cosmology and
consciousness. A grand effort initiated by von Weizsäcker (correct
me if I'm wrong) with his theory of Ur, the primordial bits of
information that were to provide a new foundation for physics.
This work predated Wheeler's "Its from Bits" by over a decade.
You, von Weizsäcker's colleague, continued that work by
formalizing many of his ideas, in particular, formalizing Ur's to
AQIs. <br>
<br>
The questions I have surround the theme of how the can complex,
yet nonrandom structure of the universe arise from randomized
interactions of simple units. <br>
<br>
Your answer seems at the core to rely on interactions by way of
the tensor product of AQIs (2-dimensional quantum objects in a
Hilbert space). The tensor product allows the escape from
2-dimensions to higher dimensions, indeed a vast higher
dimensional structure I shall call UQI (for Universe based on
quantum information). <br>
<br>
One fundamental problem is that the actual universe has the
dimensions of space and time. There is no guarantee that the
dimension expansion generated by the tensor product should
generate space and time dimensions. Thus your theory seems to rely
on an interpretative system that gives pragmatic spatial and
temporal meaning to the dimensions of UQI. Such a meta-framework
would rely on additional independent assumptions. <br>
<br>
Even if we accept the external additional assumption of a
meta-framework, a dimensional interpretative system, there is
still the problem of randomness. The combinatorics of AQIs implies
that most structures (UQIs) so generated are Kolmogorov random,
meaning irreducible to ordering laws. <br>
<br>
So either combinations of AQIs never realize a spatial-temporal
universe UQI or if they do, then the universe UQI so generated is
hopelessly random and lawless.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Eric <br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/4/25 7:01 PM, Prof. Dr. Thomas
Görnitz wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:20250104190157.Horde.nogGaGsMCAxUjKHuWzbJDtk@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de">Dear
all,
<br>
My heartfelt thanks go to Josef, who implicitly points out to me
that I was much too brief in my explanations.
<br>
I do not mean the AQIs are so abstract that they are merely
nothing. An AQI is a mathematically clearly defined quantum
structure, and the simplest one that can be imagined.
<br>
The AQIs share the property of possible existence with matter and
energy primarily as quantum structures. Some material particles
also only exist virtually, such as quarks and gluons.
Nevertheless, virtual particles can produce real effects, as can
virtual photons. And of course, real material particles and real
photons also exist.
<br>
Quantum theory is the area of natural science that makes it clear
that mere possibilities can also produce real actions.
<br>
In everyday life, this is completely evident to us humans when,
for example, we speculate on the stock market, play the lottery or
take an umbrella with us based on the weather forecast.
<br>
In the case of a “possible existence”, Josef's remark comes into
play: “they exist and do not exist at the same time".
<br>
An AQI exists in the sense that it can cause real actions. At the
same time, it does not exist in the sense that it should be
understood as a fact. Objects, for example, that appear to us as
reality or electromagnetic waves, whose emission and reception can
be registered as facts, can be designated as real.
<br>
Quantum theory, as a theory of possibilities, is based, as Josef
says, on a non-Boolean logic.
<br>
Quantum theory can also be characterized as the physics of wholes
or the emergence of new phenomena. This is based on the
mathematical structure of the tensor product. In this process, the
dimensions of the state spaces of parts are multiplicatively
combined when a whole is formed.
<br>
The essential effect of the mathematical structure of quantum
theory is the appearance of new properties in a totality, for
which there was no possible indication whatsoever in the parts
from which it was formed.
<br>
In physics, it makes sense for pragmatic reasons to distinguish
between matter, energy and information.
<br>
Matter has rest mass and can therefore remain in a certain area of
space for a certain period of time. Matter is inert and localized.
Objects are formed from it. Objects can appear to be factual.
<br>
Energy is the entity that is able to change the state of matter,
for example its motion or its form. Thus, in the central impact of
two billiard balls, the property of motion is transferred from the
impacting ball to the ball that is hit. The first ball remains
still and the second ball continues to move.
<br>
In everyday life, energy usually appears as kinetic energy, i.e.
as a property of matter, as movement.
<br>
For over a century, energy has also been known to exist in a form
in which it is not bound to any matter, namely electromagnetic
radiation, i.e. real photons.
<br>
A meaningful piece of information is one that can cause a
reaction, or the absence of a reaction, in a living being. Living
beings are localizable forms of matter, so information that can
have an effect on a living being requires a material carrier, and
an energetic carrier for transmission from the source to the
living being.
<br>
For all living things, the absorption of information is a process
of electromagnetic interaction. This is trivial for seeing, but it
also applies equally to hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and
so on. Through the interaction with real photons (Hertzian waves)
and virtual ones (Coulomb force), information about properties is
transferred from a material carrier to photons and from there to
the recipient, the living being.
<br>
In physics, we have learned to measure unknown or uninteresting
information, i.e. information without a clear meaning. We start
with a model, for example of particles, to which we assign the
possibility of a location and a velocity. We then specify a
framework, for example a particle number, a volume and a total
energy. Then you can calculate which states are possible in this
system. This unknown amount of information becomes the entropy of
the system. However, if, for example, the particles have a
structure and thus more degrees of freedom, if they are
complicated molecules, then with an improved model the entropy
also changes. In this sense, entropy is always relative, i.e.
based on certain conditions and assumptions.
<br>
Now, within the framework of the general theory of relativity,
there are structures that have a horizon, black holes. Of these
objects, we can only know their electric charge, their angular
momentum and, above all, their mass. Anything else that could be
imagined about their possible internal states is, in principle,
unknowable from the outside.
<br>
As Jakob Bekenstein showed, such objects therefore have an entropy
that exceeds everything previously conceivable by many orders of
magnitude.
<br>
With entropy, we therefore know the orders of magnitude of the
amount of information hidden inside a black hole. At the same
time, however, it is impossible to make a meaningful statement
about the specific states to which this information could refer.
<br>
If, in a thought experiment, we could observe the cosmos from the
outside like a black hole, then we could deduce the amount of
trapped total information from the trapped total energy.
<br>
At any given time, the amount of total information in the cosmos
is equal to the amount of AQIs.
<br>
This means that at any given time, the maximum amount of possible
information in the cosmos can be estimated. Some of this quantum
information in the cosmos will form into what we reasonably call
matter. Another part will form into what we call energy, or
photons. Yet another smaller part of it we will call properties of
matter or properties of photons.
<br>
Such properties can be exchanged between matter and photons and
trigger energies provided in living beings, thus producing
actions.
<br>
Information that can produce actions can be said to be meaningful.
<br>
In my perception, all possible definitions of information refer to
what is referred to here as meaningful information.
<br>
Therefore, the term “protyposis” stands for a quantum structure
that can be mathematically described as a quantum bit, but to
which no concrete meaning can yet be assigned, which in this sense
can be described as meaning-free, as abstract.
<br>
The AQIs have the complete two-dimensional complex-valued state
space of quantum theory. The fundamental inclusion of imaginary
numbers fundamentally distinguishes them from the quantum bits in
quantum computing. There, with the Bloch sphere, the bits have a
two-dimensional state space only over the real numbers.
<br>
From the point of view of natural science, the basis of matter and
energy is an absolute, i.e. still meaning-free, quantum
information.
<br>
This is still a challenging thesis, even though the relevant
calculations have long been published in peer-reviewed journals.
<br>
Possible ideas are facilitated if one realizes that quantum theory
has already shown something to be incompatible, such as an object
and its property, specifically matter and motion, to be equivalent
and thus convertible into one another.
<br>
E=mc^2 was discovered in the context of special relativity, but
the inevitable appearance of antimatter in these processes shows
that it is a quantum phenomenon.
<br>
With the large accelerators, matter can now be converted into
motion and motion into matter on Earth. This suggests that the two
are based on something in common.
<br>
Particles with a rest mass, as well as photons without a rest
mass, have an infinite-dimensional space of states. This is an
indication of a very complex structure. The simplest quantum
structures, on the other hand, have a two-dimensional space of
states.
<br>
The mathematical structure of quantum theory makes it possible to
understand how we can go from such AQIs to construct structures
with properties such as those of particles, which – such as a rest
mass, for example – are not accessible to the AQIs alone.
<br>
If the simplest quantum structure, an AQI, has the smallest
possible action, that of an action quantum h, then it can, of
course, also be assigned a value for energy. Since action is
defined as energy multiplied by time and the relevant time is the
age of the cosmos, the energy of an AQI must also be
time-dependent.
<br>
Thus, depending on the respective cosmic time, an AQI has the
smallest energy possible from a physics point of view. Quantum
theory shows that the smallest energy can be assigned the largest
possible wavelength.
<br>
With many AQIs, more and more energy can be localized better and
better.
<br>
About 10^41 AQIs can form a proton. To form a hypothetical Planck
particle with a diameter of 10^(- 35) m, 10^61.5 AQIs are
necessary.
<br>
As Beckenstein has shown, only one bit of entropy is possible in
such a minimal black hole. All the remaining 10^61.5 AQIs that
form such a Planck particle cannot be called entropy. They relate
to the accessible theoretical information about the localization
of this tiny object in a vast cosmos.
<br>
Eric pointed out the ontological aspects of information. However,
the term ontology is understood somewhat differently in computer
science than in philosophy.
<br>
In philosophy, ontology is the study of being. Reductionism seeks
to explain the existing from a fundamental and simple structure.
For thousands of years, the idea of indivisible smallest
particles, from Greek ἄτομον (uncuttable, indivisible), was used
for this. Quantum theory shows the error of this idea. Small
particles are, as mentioned, highly complicated.
<br>
A reductionism that thinks additively is impossible for
fundamental structures.
<br>
Quantum theory, on the other hand, operates multiplicatively with
the tensor product of the state spaces from the simple to the
complex.
<br>
Therefore, to my knowledge, it is the only scientific-mathematical
theory that can explain the emergence of something new that is
more and different than the sum of its parts.
<br>
In this form of an explanation of the complex from the simplest
structures, “emergence” is implicitly mathematically built in from
the outset.
<br>
Once again, best wishes for 2025 for everyone
<br>
Thomas
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Quoting <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Dear Eric,
<br>
<br>
You deserve the credit and our thanks for your first paragraph,
especially your formulations as questions. Since they apparently
lead to absurdities (discontinuities), though, is not the
solution to change the interpretation based on aspects of
quantum computation?
<br>
<br>
In the 2nd paragraph, one needs to avoid the "Richard Rorty"
error that everything is relative.
<br>
<br>
I like your 3rd paragraph, but not the last sentence, because I
think, especially in informational terms, we should talk about
processes rather than "things". Then I think we can say with
more confidence that the composition (structure) of a thing
(process) is somewhat dependent on its form, giving form the
more dynamic interpretation or role that it has, for example, in
Eastern thought.
<br>
<br>
Your last sentence is thus right on, and we can envision a
minimal ontological bridging between even arithmetic and its
results.
<br>
<br>
Cheers,
<br>
Joe
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Le 01.01.2025 17:12 CET, Eric Werner
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eric.werner@oarf.org"><eric.werner@oarf.org></a> a écrit :
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear All,
<br>
<br>
Happy New Year and let it be a peaceful year!
<br>
<br>
But intellectual peace can lead to boredom, so let's get into
some conflicts of ideas.
<br>
<br>
Joseph, you or Leibniiz are getting at a fundamental problem
in how quantum computation on set of possible states which if
they were real of miminal Planck size would take up more space
than is available in the Universe. So they cannot be real in
the sense of taking up space. If not spatially real can they
be temporally real? Or will it take more time than the age of
the universe to operate on those possibilities? If so then
they are not temporally real.
<br>
<br>
Thomas and Karl: In terms of meaning in the real world of
humans and animals meaning seem to be relative to the
subject-agent when messages act on and transform the
representational state of the agent-receiver-subject be it his
or her information state, intentional state or
evaluate-emotional state.
<br>
<br>
In effect, one might call these levels of ontology where
information is relative to the level of ontology of the
observer-agent. The information at one level of ontology can
be independent of the information at a lower or higher level
of ontology. In other words, reductionism does not seem to
hold for ontological levels. The composition of a thing is
somewhat if not totally independent of its form.
<br>
<br>
So to the process of arithmetic can be different from the
result.
<br>
<br>
Best,
<br>
<br>
Eric
<br>
<br>
On 1/1/25 4:13 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> wrote:
<br>
<br>
> Dear Thomas and All,
<br>
> Happy New Year!
<br>
>
<br>
> I apologize to Pedro and Krassimir for coming back to the
Jason/Thomas dialogue but I believe the following point is a
critical one:
<br>
>
<br>
> Thomas wrote:
<br>
> These quantum structures with a two-dimensional Hilbert
space are to be thought of as absolute and completely
abstract, not as properties
<br>
> of a material or energetic structure. I call them AQIs.
The AQIs form matter, energy, as well as the properties of
matter and energy.
<br>
>
<br>
> It it seems to me this position runs into a Leibniz
"bind": if AQI's are completely abstract, how can they form
anything, let alone matter/energy with which they do not share
properties? To the extent that quanta are quanta of energy, is
it then correct to call them AQI's? In your response to
Jason, you make it clear that this is not the case. The AQI's
are units of action, but my comment still holds.
<br>
>
<br>
> The only solution I see is to adopt a principle that All
have never explicitly accepted, namely that, AQI's are and are
not abstract; they exist and do not exist at the same time.
Understood in this way, they could form a basis for reality
and its non-Boolean logic, now with apologies to Louis.
<br>
>
<br>
> Thank you anyway,
<br>
> Joseph
<br>
>
<br>
>
<br>
> > Dear Dr. Goernitz,
<br>
> > Can AQI exist independently from its context - or
some larger structure (matter or energy)? By "exist," I mean
stability with a relevant longer time.
<br>
> > By "longer time," I mean in the range of human
perception, even with the help of cognitive instruments. Just
curious.
<br>
> > Best regards - Jason
<br>
> >
<br>
> > On Mon, Dec 30, 2024 at 2:00 AM Prof. Dr. Thomas
Görnitz <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.demailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de"><goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de
mailto:goernitz@em.uni-frankfurt.de></a> wrote:
<br>
> >
<br>
> > > Dear All,
<br>
> > > I would like to start by wishing everyone a
healthy, successful and
<br>
> > > hopefully more peaceful new year.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > Now a few comments from me on the current
contributions, regarding
<br>
> > > information and meaning.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > Natural science seeks rules and laws for the
processes in nature.
<br>
> > > However, due to the expansion of the cosmos,
there are never two
<br>
> > > completely identical situations. For an
individual case, however, the
<br>
> > > idea of a rule is meaningless.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > Rules require similarity, laws require – not
only in jurisprudence – equality.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > Similarity and equality arise from sweeping
what appears to be
<br>
> > > insignificant in the situations under
consideration under the carpet.
<br>
> > > Changes to inanimate matter require the
expenditure of energy, but
<br>
> > > living things can also be influenced by
meaningful information.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > Scientific explanation starts from simple
structures to explain
<br>
> > > complicated structures.
<br>
> > > Chemistry explains the biochemical basis of
life. Quantum mechanics
<br>
> > > provides the theoretical basis for chemistry.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > The simplest quantum structures that are
mathematically possible have
<br>
> > > only a two-dimensional state space. It
therefore makes sense to call
<br>
> > > them quantum bits.
<br>
> > > The particles of quantum mechanics and, with
that, the quantum field
<br>
> > > theories can be constructed from these
structures.
<br>
> > > This means that matter can be understood as a
special form of such
<br>
> > > quantum bits.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > It has been known for some time that quantum
theory relativizes
<br>
> > > distinctions that are important for everyday
life. E=mc^2 shows the
<br>
> > > equivalence of matter with motion, i.e. with
one of its properties.
<br>
> > > The distinction between force and matter is
reduced to the distinction
<br>
> > > between fermions and bosons, which can be
converted into one another
<br>
> > > under certain conditions.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > These quantum structures with a two-dimensional
Hilbert space are to
<br>
> > > be thought of as absolute and completely
abstract, not as properties
<br>
> > > of a material or energetic structure. I call
them AQIs.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > The AQIs form matter, energy, as well as the
properties of matter and energy.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > Life only emerged relatively late in the
development of the cosmos,
<br>
> > > and only for living things can something become
meaningful.
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > Quoting Karl Javorszky
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.commailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com"><karl.javorszky@gmail.com
mailto:karl.javorszky@gmail.com></a>:
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > > Again, one wonders.
<br>
> > > >
<br>
> > > > Marcus writes:
<br>
> > > > you also invoke ‘meaning’ which is
notoriously difficult to define – where
<br>
> > > > do you clearly define meaning?
<br>
> > > >
<br>
> > > > There is a perfectly valid definition of
meaning available for all who
<br>
> > > > have access to the FIS list.
<br>
> > > >
<br>
> > > > The last time this définition was shared
with the Learned Friends was 21
<br>
> > > > days ago, 9th December 2024, in a letter
to Xueshan.
<br>
> > > >
<br>
> > > > *Information has been defined (eg Liaisons
Among Symbols) as the totality
<br>
> > > > of ∆ (n?, n!).*
<br>
> > > >
<br>
> > > > *Meaning has been defined (op. cit.) as
the relation of a context to at
<br>
> > > > least one of the Central Elements.*
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz
<br>
> > > Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF
INFORMATION STUDIES
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > Privat (für Postsendungen):
<br>
> > > Karl-Mangold-Str. 13
<br>
> > > D-81245 München
<br>
> > > Tel: 0049-89-887746
<br>
> > >
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://goernitzunderstandingquantumtheory.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Twd5A-cSLW8XBCnqHSJSmnpnRgk8TzmugecCjfUIUl15bOVeXlewBLt5Z82oDgMW23D9dJVIhIcotYDJNuXxBAlvzbWnJw$">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://goernitzunderstandingquantumtheory.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Twd5A-cSLW8XBCnqHSJSmnpnRgk8TzmugecCjfUIUl15bOVeXlewBLt5Z82oDgMW23D9dJVIhIcotYDJNuXxBAlvzbWnJw$</a><br>
> > >
<br>
> > > Fachbereich Physik
<br>
> > > J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > >
<br>
> > > _______________________________________________
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> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER
PERSONAL
<br>
>
<br>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de
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> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos
sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
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<br>
--
<br>
Dr. Eric Werner, FLS
<br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SY5RFrMFCMp2uWAkXwn_QCe6JpY9FEy6O6eh4cCM2VqgAgSIAB1yGtuSwQ79cNXgFALwlBRxjTsVpWfsUQhyHlDXZMAxhw$">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SY5RFrMFCMp2uWAkXwn_QCe6JpY9FEy6O6eh4cCM2VqgAgSIAB1yGtuSwQ79cNXgFALwlBRxjTsVpWfsUQhyHlDXZMAxhw$</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xhz0IvhgOe-yPY1gwPY6Gj8VLdLnbuosxjBMI5stUTafCU504r_Sp6gQrRkEviuyBgkZ3DajsSXilVk5j8ly7Vg$">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Xhz0IvhgOe-yPY1gwPY6Gj8VLdLnbuosxjBMI5stUTafCU504r_Sp6gQrRkEviuyBgkZ3DajsSXilVk5j8ly7Vg$</a>
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<br>
----------
<br>
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus
datos en el siguiente enlace:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede
darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que
lo desee.
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
<br>
----------
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Prof. Dr. Thomas Görnitz
<br>
Fellow of the INTERNATIONAL ACADEMY OF INFORMATION STUDIES
<br>
<br>
Privat (für Postsendungen):
<br>
Karl-Mangold-Str. 13
<br>
D-81245 München
<br>
Tel: 0049-89-887746
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://goernitzunderstandingquantumtheory.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SY5RFrMFCMp2uWAkXwn_QCe6JpY9FEy6O6eh4cCM2VqgAgSIAB1yGtuSwQ79cNXgFALwlBRxjTsVpWfsUQhyHlDzKnm48A$">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://goernitzunderstandingquantumtheory.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SY5RFrMFCMp2uWAkXwn_QCe6JpY9FEy6O6eh4cCM2VqgAgSIAB1yGtuSwQ79cNXgFALwlBRxjTsVpWfsUQhyHlDzKnm48A$</a>
<br>
Fachbereich Physik
<br>
J. W. Goethe-Universität Frankfurt/Main
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________
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<br>
----------
<br>
INFORMACIN SOBRE PROTECCIN DE DATOS DE CARCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
<br>
Puede encontrar toda la informacin sobre como tratamos sus datos
en el siguiente enlace:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a><br>
Recuerde que si est suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede
darse de baja desde la propia aplicacin en el momento en que lo
desee.
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
<br>
----------
<br>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<i>
Dr. Eric Werner, FLS <br>
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RhItcD22CurfK7Iruhq42Nw8TQkBMY2Upa98kX2zRs3dnUFUe4IW9XK6377x640QTjytq63PDRu9BwPugrETHn8$">https://oarf.org</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
</i></div>
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