[Fis] New Discussion Session-

joe.brenner at bluewin.ch joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Wed Oct 23 10:49:28 CEST 2024 

I for one would velcome focussing on the specific problem stated by Peter. I am particularly interested in how positive and negative feedback may be instantiated in the same system, in the spirit of the systems scientist and philosopher Gian-Franco Minati in Milan.
 
Joseph

> Le 23.10.2024 03:31 CEST, Peter Erdi <peter.erdi at kzoo.edu> a écrit :
>  
>  
>  
> Dear All,
>  
> Let's try to specify the topic of the present conversation.
>  
> First, thanks for the comments you have sent so far.
>  
>  Short reactions:
>    Marcus: yes, you are right. I will be more specific in the second half of this email.
>     Karl: It's great to connect again. Yes, connecting the dots is one of my goals. I gave a historical analysis of the role of negative and feedback loops (closed circuits) in technological, biological, and social systems.
>  
> Alex: I have a very, very superficial knowledge of Perennial Philosophy. Apologies.
>  
> Zhensong: Thank you for your initial interest.
>  
> Now, I suggest now to focus our discussion to a specific problem:
> +++
> A large class of malfunction of biological and social systems is due to the impairment of the control systems.  It is related to the concept of dynamical diseases,  e.g. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubs.aip.org/aip/cha/article/31/6/060401/1030603/Introduction-to-Focus-Issue-Dynamical-disease-A__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEB2xo5alw$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubs.aip.org/aip/cha/article/31/6/060401/1030603/Introduction-to-Focus-Issue-Dynamical-disease-A__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEB2xo5alw$ 
>  
> I would like to see that impairment of the control system can explain huge world problems, from climate change to (too much) social unrest. Also, therapeutic strategies may be offered by using the spirit of feedback control.
>  
> [As we all know, negative feedback stabilizes, while positive feedback amplifies the initial minor differences.]
>  
> Could we turn our discussion to this specific (still general) problem?
> +++
>  
> I am looking forward to reading your comments.
>  
> Kind regards,
>  
> Peter
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> From: 王振嵩 <zhensong at xjtu.edu.cn>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2024 11:34 AM
> To: joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
> Cc: Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>
> Subject: Re: Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback. Loops (OFF-LINE)
>  
> Dear Joseph,
> Thank you for forwarding this information to me. First, I noticed your reply to Peter these days; my other email address, 232456667 at qq.com mailto:232456667 at qq.com, is already listed in Pedro's FIS forum directory. Nonetheless, I am very grateful that you thought to forward this message to me.
> Regarding the Information Philosopher website, I discovered it quite some time ago, and it has been saved in my bookmarks. However, I have not found it to be particularly comprehensive, which is why I rarely think to pull it up from my bookmarks and visit it. What confuses me is the selection of philosophers listed on the site, many of which seem somewhat tenuous. For instance, including Aristotle, Plato, and Stuart Mill as information philosophers seems a bit of a stretch, considering that formal discussions on the philosophy of information really only began to take sape in the mid-20th century, following the pioneering work of Wiener and Shannon in information science. The initial aim of the philosophy of information was to critique the understanding of the nature of information within information science. Thus, I find the inclusion of many of the listed philosophers to be rather forced.
> Moreover, while you, Wu Kun, Rafael Capurro, Wolfgang Hofkirchner, Mark Burgin, and others have made significant contributions to the field of information philosophy and are mentioned in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on information, it is peculiar that this website does not acknowledge your contributions. As such, I believe the website is quite inadequate as a specialized resource for discussing information philosophers.
> Otherwise, thank you, Peter, for your previous brief remarks. I will continue to follow your subsequent posts and related discussions in FIS.
> Best regards, Zhensong
>  
>  
>  
> 
> > -----原始邮件-----
> > 发件人: joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
> > 发送时间: 2024-10-22 18:38:17 (星期二)
> > 收件人: "Peter Erdi" <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>, "zhensong at xjtu.edu.cn" <zhensong at xjtu.edu.cn>
> > 主题: Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback. Loops (OFF-LINE)
> > 
> > Dear Peter,
> >  
> > One reason for being part of Pedro's group is to learn, and I thus thank you very much for the reference. I am supposed to know something about the Philosophy of Information, yet was unaware of the site "Information Philosopher". I am therefore forwarding this note to my colleague in Xi'An China, Zhensong Yang, who may also have missed it.
> >  
> > Relevant to the current FIS discussion, in a quick scan I found the following points:
> >  
> > 1. Regarding Gestalten, movement between figure and ground remains epistemic unless carefully restated as a real mental process.
> > 2. Two good high-school friends were psychoanalysts, the sons of two of Freud's ealiest associciates Ernst Kris and Heinz and Dora Hartmann. However, I was never able to move them in my direction, that is, toward science and natural philosophy.
> > 3. You refer correctly to the risks of abstract models. Clearly, some cyberneticians are inconsistent but my guess is that all such would see this as purely negative.
> > 4. A good picture of complexity is given, as well as the need to do more with it than refer to "negative feedback". 
> > Best wishes,
> > Joe
> >  
> > 
> > > Le 21.10.2024 18:04 CEST, Peter Erdi <peter.erdi at kzoo.edu> a écrit :
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Dear All,
> > >  
> > > I appreciate your initial responses. I would wait another 48 hours to react.
> > >  
> > > I make one remark here regarding Joe's statement on recursion: As we all know, Cybernetics started with the Inaugural Macy Conference on Feedback Mechanisms and Circular Causal Systems in Biological and Social Systems. (see say a website useful for FISers:
> > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.informationphilosopher.com/conferences/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEBSXe4cpg$ ).
> > >  
> > > More to come on Wed.
> > >  
> > > Peter
> > >  
> > >  
> > > 
> > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > From: joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
> > > Sent: Monday, October 21, 2024 11:44 AM
> > > To: Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>; Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> > > Subject: Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback. Loops
> > >  
> > > Dear Peter,
> > >  
> > > Thank you for your most interesting introduction. As someone rather unfamiliar with this part of the field, it would be helpful if you could clarify the purport you give to some familiar terms, namely - loop, circle (or cycle), and spiral.
> > >  
> > > For me, a closed loop is a circle, and natural processes are not circular since they never come back to exactly the same point, although it may be close to all intents and purposes. An open loop and a spiral to me are topologically and physically equivalent. I would place real recursive processes in ths category. The concept of recursion seems to me broadly applicable to cognitive and social phenomena.
> > >  
> > > The domain of real processes is still larger, however, since it must include processes that change direction, stop and restart or "go backwards".
> > >  
> > > By this time, where are the loops?
> > >  
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Joseph
> > > 
> > > > Le 21.10.2024 01:30 CEST, Peter Erdi <peter.erdi at kzoo.edu> a écrit :
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > Dear FISer:
> > > >  
> > > > Personal Intro:
> > > > I am happily back in this community: I attended the 1994, 1996, and 2005 conferences. In the last twenty years, I have been active in the neural network community (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.inns.org/fellows-senior-members/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEBmGGcxfQ$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.inns.org/fellows-senior-members/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFFCEJQy6$). In the previous five years, I published three books,
> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEBMXxoHdo$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFP9sLo6U$ ,,
> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEBMd2DOa4$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$
> > > >  
> > > > The third is in press: 
> > > > Feedback: How to Destroy or Save the World
> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/9783031624384__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEBj6dvR4c$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$
> > > > (There is a 20% discount code at checkout on link.springer.com: 
> > > > I9rXjXjXbr7UGE / Valid Oct 10, 2024 – Nov 7, 2024). The Foreword was written by Michael Arbib. 
> > > >  
> > > > I hope you don't mind if I hope to have a lively discussion about both feedback control and its potential role in answering the question:
> > > >  
> > > > Will humanity survive, and will our grandchildren live in prosperity? Or should we worry about the possibility of humanity's extinction?
> > > >  
> > > > Hypothesis: There is a narrow border between destruction and prosperity: to ensure reasonable growth but avoid existential risk, we must find a fine-tuned balance between positive and negative feedback. My attempt is not to deal with the impossible task, to prove (certainly not in the spirit of formal feedback control theory), but to support the belief. Chapters 1 - 5 are about the historical roles of feedback control in nature, technology, and society. Chapters 6 and 7 discuss the dichotomy of destroying or saving the world and the role of feedback control in avoiding huge catastrophes.
> > > >  
> > > > I suggest starting the discussion with a specific topic, but I am open to any comments, initial remarks, etc.
> > > >  
> > > > Chapter 1: Norbert Wiener's Dream: Technology, Life, and Society
> > > >  
> > > > This chapter overviews the birth of Cybernetics as a general theory of
> > > > goal-seeking systems. It introduces the notion of positive and negative feedback and gives credit to the General Systems Theory, which gave a framework for integrating the natural sciences with the social sciences. Modern computers made possible the simulation of social systems based on causal relationships among state variables, leading to various predicted scenarios about the world's future, some pessimistic.
> > > > One clear insight is that uncontrolled technological progress may negatively affect the environment, and we need to maintain a balance between economic growth and sustainability.
> > > >  
> > > > Chapter 2: Feedback Control in the History of Technology
> > > >  
> > > > This chapter gives an overview of the application of feedback control
> > > > throughout technological development. In technological systems, the goal is to ensure that some physical quantities, such as temperature, pressure, velocity, or altitude (and many others), show some desirable, prescribed behavior over time. Negative feedback stabilizes, while positive feedback amplifies even the initially minor differences.
> > > > Outriggers, mechanical clocks, steam engines, aviation technologies, and electronics are the main stages of progress toward the Space Travel Age. Feedback control systems played a crucial role in space exploration.
> > > >  
> > > > Chapter 3: Feedback Control in Biological Systems
> > > >  
> > > > Feedback control is a fundamental tool at every level of the biological hierarchy, from cellular to socio-ecological systems. It ensures homeostasis by adopting a general mechanism for restoring certain states after a small perturbation. Dynamical diseases occur due to the impairment of control systems. The theory of nonlinear dynamics offers a mathematical framework to analyze pathological temporal patterns. It aims to find control strategies to shift the physiological parameters back into normal ranges.
> > > >  
> > > > Chapter 4: Climate Changes, Wildfires, Tsunamis
> > > >  
> > > > This chapter starts with analyzing the role of positive and negative feedback loops in climate systems. Self-reinforcing positive feedback loops could result in an irreversible tipping point when climate spins out of control, with catastrophic results. Reducing the chance of climate catastrophe must become a central focus for civilization today, and appropriate feedback control strategies should be implemented.
> > > >  
> > > > Chapter 5: From Laissez-Faire to Greenspan: Feedback Control in Economic Systems
> > > >  
> > > > This chapter analyzes a fundamental question: Should economics be controlled or not? Is the “invisible hand” and the self-regulation of free market capitalism the best possible mechanism, or does the economy need governmental intervention? Minsky’s hypothesis suggests that stability implies instability. It is an observational fact that the economy shows a cyclic pattern: business cycles with different frequencies
> > > > are very general. Uncompensated positive feedback is found to be a general mechanism leading to extreme events, among other hyperinflation.
> > > >  
> > > > Chapter 6: From Natural Disasters to Social Riots
> > > >  
> > > > This chapter starts with analyzing whether we should worry about the
> > > > possibility of existential risk. In the subsection about the complex system approach to political instability, several issues, namely terrorism, social unrest, and migration, are discussed. Finally, a short system-theoretical analysis implies that democracies do better than autocracies.
> > > >  
> > > > Chapter 7: Epilogue: The Narrow Border Between Prosperity and Destruction
> > > >  
> > > > Do we live in the best possible world or the shadow of existential risk? The answer is BOTH! To avoid disasters, we need to apply the spirit of feedback control.
> > > >  
> > > > The ball is in your court,
> > > > Péter Érdi, October 20, 2024
> > > > 
> > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > > From: Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, October 18, 2024 12:08 PM
> > > > To: Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>; 'fis' <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
> > > >  
> > > > Dear Peter,
> > > >  
> > > > Many thanks for your "pre-discussion" message.
> > > > My suggestion to channel such a broad approach is to divide it into two parts.
> > > >  
> > > > In the first one, the more scientific-technical part (what you mention about "the historical role of the concept of feedback".)
> > > > No doubt there are many points of interest there.
> > > > And later on, you could publish a second part about the related vision of the "big themes" and risks of our times.
> > > >  
> > > > I think in this way the discussion may flow with some easiness. 
> > > > Otherwise we would be happy with whatever scheme you prefer.
> > > > All the best,
> > > > --Pedro
> > > >  
> > > > El 17/10/2024 a las 22:25, Peter Erdi escribió:
> > > > 
> > > > > Dear Pedro and Dear FIS Colleagues:
> > > > >  
> > > > > Thank you for your introduction (I will make some slight corrections).
> > > > >  
> > > > > I will need several days to publish my formal introductory text.  I would like to discuss with you my thesis:
> > > > >  
> > > > > There is a narrow border between destruction and prosperity: to ensure reasonable growth but avoid existential risk, we must find the fine-tuned balance between positive and negative feedback.
> > > > >  
> > > > > I hope to discuss with you both the historical role of the concept of feedback and its possible contribution to destroying or saving the world. Apologies for the self-propaganda, I have a book in press https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/978303162438__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEBke_WRH8$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/978303162438__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFN2pCEni$4  will write a discount code, (apologies again).
> > > > >  
> > > > > Stay tuned,
> > > > >  
> > > > > Péter Érdi
> > > > > Henry R. Luce Professor of Complex Systems Studies
> > > > >  
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEBP0entpM$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFIGWr1C6$
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEBXHvxfEs$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKttEg2g$
> > > > >  Kalamazoo College https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.kzoo.edu/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFLJkHx4Q$
> > > > > 
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > > > From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es on behalf of Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com> mailto:pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2024 9:58 AM
> > > > > To: 'fis' <fis at listas.unizar.es> mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es
> > > > > Subject: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
> > > > >  
> > > > > Dear FIS Colleagues,
> > > > > We may start a new discussion session during next days.
> > > > > Title:
> > > > > Complexity and feedback: in nature, technology, and society
> > > > > Presenter:
> > > > > Peter Érdi
> > > > > Henry R. Luce Professor
> > > > > University of Kalamazoo (MI)
> > > > > 
> > > > > Greetings to all,
> > > > > --Pedro
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > Pedro C. Marijuán
> > > > > FIS Coordination
> > > > > FIS Archives last 10 years:
> > > > > http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/
> > > > > List of discussion sessions last 25 years:
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEBjpJTSoU$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TM06qZ3D-mizico54YZw0l02tThdpy8xhdwd-35rmpmp5LM3hVvhPm6QcyJkzk8-r75hzcUI7pAEoVj7FK3iHm9j0FfC$
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TM06qZ3D-mizico54YZw0l02tThdpy8xhdwd-35rmpmp5LM3hVvhPm6QcyJkzk8-r75hzcUI7pAEoVj7FK3iHhgQVZWt$
> > > > > Libre de virus.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V-_4cD1QKkqaOD4B0t1cjrjT1RoOcPrcuMQ7J4SImSpRxFJhU_ScejoWPdgnPtZIPyXjGIyI2UCrPJDuLKEBD8Tz18I$  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TM06qZ3D-mizico54YZw0l02tThdpy8xhdwd-35rmpmp5LM3hVvhPm6QcyJkzk8-r75hzcUI7pAEoVj7FK3iHhgQVZWt$
> > > > > 
> > > >  
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> > 
>  
>  
>  
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> Department of Philosophy
>  
> School of Humanities and Social Sciences
>  
> Xi'an Jiaotong Univeristy, 710049
>  
> Xi'an, Shaanxi Province, China
> 
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