[Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback. Loops (OFF-LINE)

Wed Oct 23 10:04:13 CEST 2024

Dear all,

the problem we are facing is based, as I have been saying for half a
century, on normal values from a subjective point of view and on the
processes of trans-information, more or less retroactive, evoking
Prigoginean infra-structures that create order (neg-entropic) from disorder
(entropic) through fluctuations.

My new economic theory is based on the triangle of the three neg-entropic
surpluses: thermodynamic, eco-biological and semiotic-hermeneutic, more or
less mathematical.

Just a few weeks ago, the “Economic Theo-Human-logy or Theo-Human-Logical
Economy” (Aracne, Rome) was published.

However, I am happily open and ready to learn new things.

Thank you, Francesco Rizzo.

Cari tutti,

la problematica che stiamo affrontando è fondata, come sostengo da mezzo
secolo, sui valori normali dal punto di vista soggettivo e sui processi di
tras-infomazione, più o meno retro-attivi, evocanti prigogineane
infra-strutture che creano ordine (neg-entropico) dal disordine (entropico)
mediante fluttuazioni.

La mia nuova teoria economica è basata sul triangolo dei tre surplus
neg-entropici: termodinamici, eco-biologici e semiotico-ermeneutici, più o
meno matematici.

Proprio, qualche settimana fa, ha visto la luce la “Teo-umano-logia
economica o economia teo-umano-logica” (Aracne, Roma).

Tuttavia, sono felicemente aperto e pronto ad apprendere cose nuove.

Grazie, Francesco Rizzo.

Il giorno mer 23 ott 2024 alle ore 03:32 Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi en kzoo.edu>
ha scritto:

>
> Dear All,
>
> Let's try to specify the topic of the present conversation.
>
> First, thanks for the comments you have sent so far.
>
>  Short reactions:
>    *Marcus: *yes, you are right. I will be more specific in the second
> half of this email.
>     *Karl: *It's great to connect again. Yes, connecting the dots is one
> of my goals. I gave a historical analysis of the role of negative and
> feedback loops (closed circuits) in technological, biological, and social
> systems.
>
> *Alex:* I have a very, very superficial knowledge of Perennial
> Philosophy. Apologies.
>
> *Zhensong: *Thank you for your initial interest.
>
> Now, I suggest now to focus our discussion to a specific problem:
> +++
> *A large class of malfunction of biological and social systems is due to
> the impairment of the control systems.  *It is related to the concept of* dynamical
> diseases,  e.g.
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubs.aip.org/aip/cha/article/31/6/060401/1030603/Introduction-to-Focus-Issue-Dynamical-disease-A__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VtHcBFGBoyad4iHl_odFp0vK-KMgb5heyIsN8Vz2oPQGT24S62R8XdCGPo-6CYkdsAUTLZINL4_l7hwwC6JEGvzSOfx0$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubs.aip.org/aip/cha/article/31/6/060401/1030603/Introduction-to-Focus-Issue-Dynamical-disease-A__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TG1qYykSiB5ZWrbgkEJO2dT-erEWO2dEV5rVxC3zTWuLODXT_3d8wdhaRlKbzHD7JoZyxTX3NJHfAGCHLSktKz7e$>*
>
> I would like to see that impairment of the control system can explain huge
> world problems, from climate change to (too much) social unrest. Also,
> therapeutic strategies may be offered by using the spirit of feedback
> control.
>
> [As we all know, negative feedback stabilizes, while positive feedback
> amplifies the initial minor differences.]
>
> *Could we turn our discussion to this specific (still general) problem?*
> +++
>
> I am looking* forward to reading your comments.*
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* 王振嵩 <zhensong en xjtu.edu.cn>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2024 11:34 AM
> *To:* joe.brenner en bluewin.ch <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>
> *Cc:* Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi en kzoo.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback.
> Loops (OFF-LINE)
>
>
> Dear Joseph,
>
> Thank you for forwarding this information to me. First, I noticed your
> reply to Peter these days; my other email address, 232456667 en qq.com, is
> already listed in Pedro's FIS forum directory. Nonetheless, I am very
> grateful that you thought to forward this message to me.
>
> Regarding the Information Philosopher website, I discovered it quite some
> time ago, and it has been saved in my bookmarks. However, I have not found
> it to be particularly comprehensive, which is why I rarely think to pull it
> up from my bookmarks and visit it. What confuses me is the selection of
> philosophers listed on the site, many of which seem somewhat tenuous. For
> instance, including Aristotle, Plato, and Stuart Mill as information
> philosophers seems a bit of a stretch, considering that formal discussions
> on the philosophy of information really only began to take sape in the
> mid-20th century, following the pioneering work of Wiener and Shannon in
> information science. The initial aim of the philosophy of information was
> to critique the understanding of the nature of information within
> information science. Thus, I find the inclusion of many of the listed
> philosophers to be rather forced.
>
> Moreover, while you, Wu Kun, Rafael Capurro, Wolfgang Hofkirchner, Mark
> Burgin, and others have made significant contributions to the field of
> information philosophy and are mentioned in the Stanford Encyclopedia of
> Philosophy entry on information, it is peculiar that this website does not
> acknowledge your contributions. As such, I believe the website is quite
> inadequate as a specialized resource for discussing information
> philosophers.
>
> Otherwise, thank you, Peter, for your previous brief remarks. I will
> continue to follow your subsequent posts and related discussions in FIS.
>
> Best regards, Zhensong
>
>
>
>
> -----原始邮件-----
> *发件人:* joe.brenner en bluewin.ch
> *发送时间:* 2024-10-22 18:38:17 (星期二)
> *收件人:* "Peter Erdi" <Peter.Erdi en kzoo.edu>, "zhensong en xjtu.edu.cn" <
> zhensong en xjtu.edu.cn>
> *主题:* Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback. Loops
> (OFF-LINE)
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> One reason for being part of Pedro's group is to learn, and I thus thank
> you very much for the reference. I am supposed to know something about the
> Philosophy of Information, yet was unaware of the site "Information
> Philosopher". I am therefore forwarding this note to my colleague in Xi'An
> China, Zhensong Yang, who may also have missed it.
>
> Relevant to the current FIS discussion, in a quick scan I found the
> following points:
>
>
>    1. Regarding *Gestalten*, movement between figure and ground remains
>    epistemic unless carefully restated as a real mental process.
>    2. Two good high-school friends were psychoanalysts, the sons of two
>    of Freud's ealiest associciates Ernst Kris and Heinz and Dora Hartmann.
>    However, I was never able to move them in my direction, that is, toward
>    science and natural philosophy.
>    3. You refer correctly to the risks of abstract models. Clearly, some
>    cyberneticians are inconsistent but my guess is that all such would see
>    this as purely negative.
>    4. A good picture of complexity is given, as well as the need to do
>    more with it than refer to "negative feedback".
>
> Best wishes,
> Joe
>
>
> Le 21.10.2024 18:04 CEST, Peter Erdi <peter.erdi en kzoo.edu> a écrit :
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I appreciate your initial responses. I would wait another 48 hours to
> react.
>
> I make one remark here regarding Joe's statement on recursion: As we all
> know, Cybernetics started with the Inaugural Macy Conference on *Feedback
> Mechanisms and Circular Causal Systems in Biological and Social Systems. *(see
> say a website useful for FISers:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.informationphilosopher.com/conferences/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VtHcBFGBoyad4iHl_odFp0vK-KMgb5heyIsN8Vz2oPQGT24S62R8XdCGPo-6CYkdsAUTLZINL4_l7hwwC6JEGqz2RrVy$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.informationphilosopher.com/conferences/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TG1qYykSiB5ZWrbgkEJO2dT-erEWO2dEV5rVxC3zTWuLODXT_3d8wdhaRlKbzHD7JoZyxTX3NJHfAGCHLYHvpjmB$>
> ).
>
> More to come on Wed.
>
> Peter
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* joe.brenner en bluewin.ch <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>
> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2024 11:44 AM
> *To:* Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi en kzoo.edu>; Pedro C. Marijuán <
> pedroc.marijuan en gmail.com>; fis <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback. Loops
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> Thank you for your most interesting introduction. As someone rather
> unfamiliar with this part of the field, it would be helpful if you could
> clarify the purport you give to some familiar terms, namely - loop, circle
> (or cycle), and spiral.
>
> For me, a closed loop is a circle, and natural processes are not circular
> since they never come back to *exactly* the same point, although it may
> be close to all intents and purposes. An open loop and a spiral to me are
> topologically and physically equivalent. I would place real recursive
> processes in ths category. The concept of recursion seems to me broadly
> applicable to cognitive and social phenomena.
>
> The domain of real processes is still larger, however, since it must
> include processes that change direction, stop and restart or "go backwards".
>
> By this time, where are the loops?
>
> Best wishes,
> Joseph
>
> Le 21.10.2024 01:30 CEST, Peter Erdi <peter.erdi en kzoo.edu> a écrit :
>
>
>
> Dear FISer:
>
> *Personal Intro:*
> I am happily back in this community: I attended the 1994, 1996, and 2005
> conferences. In the last twenty years, I have been active in the neural
> network community (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.inns.org/fellows-senior-members/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VtHcBFGBoyad4iHl_odFp0vK-KMgb5heyIsN8Vz2oPQGT24S62R8XdCGPo-6CYkdsAUTLZINL4_l7hwwC6JEGhLrM0Ju$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.inns.org/fellows-senior-members/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFFCEJQy6$>).
> In the previous five years, I published three books,
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VtHcBFGBoyad4iHl_odFp0vK-KMgb5heyIsN8Vz2oPQGT24S62R8XdCGPo-6CYkdsAUTLZINL4_l7hwwC6JEGhm6TBO5$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFP9sLo6U$>
>  ,,
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VtHcBFGBoyad4iHl_odFp0vK-KMgb5heyIsN8Vz2oPQGT24S62R8XdCGPo-6CYkdsAUTLZINL4_l7hwwC6JEGs2QpmPl$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$>
>
> The third is in press:
> *Feedback: How to Destroy or Save the World*
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/9783031624384__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VtHcBFGBoyad4iHl_odFp0vK-KMgb5heyIsN8Vz2oPQGT24S62R8XdCGPo-6CYkdsAUTLZINL4_l7hwwC6JEGv6m0um9$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$>
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$>
> (There is a 20% discount code at checkout on link.springer.com:
> *I9rXjXjXbr7UGE* / Valid Oct 10, 2024 – Nov 7, 2024). The Foreword was
> written by Michael Arbib.
>
> I hope you don't mind if I hope to have a lively discussion about both
> feedback control and its potential role in answering the question:
>
> *Will humanity survive, and will our grandchildren live in prosperity? Or
> should we worry about the possibility of humanity's extinction?*
>
> *Hypothesis: *There is a narrow border between destruction and
> prosperity: to ensure reasonable growth but avoid existential risk, we must
> find a fine-tuned balance between positive and negative feedback. My
> attempt is not to deal with the impossible task, to prove (certainly not in
> the spirit of formal feedback control theory), but to support the belief.
> Chapters 1 - 5 are about the historical roles of feedback control in
> nature, technology, and society. Chapters 6 and 7 discuss the dichotomy of
> destroying or saving the world and the role of feedback control in avoiding
> huge catastrophes.
>
> I suggest starting the discussion with a specific topic, but I am open to
> any comments, initial remarks, etc.
>
> *Chapter 1: Norbert Wiener's Dream: Technology, Life, and Society*
>
> This chapter overviews the birth of Cybernetics as a general theory of
> goal-seeking systems. It introduces the notion of positive and negative
> feedback and gives credit to the General Systems Theory, which gave a
> framework for integrating the natural sciences with the social sciences.
> Modern computers made possible the simulation of social systems based on
> causal relationships among state variables, leading to various predicted
> scenarios about the world's future, some pessimistic.
> One clear insight is that uncontrolled technological progress may
> negatively affect the environment, and we need to maintain a balance
> between economic growth and sustainability.
>
> *Chapter 2: Feedback Control in the History of Technology*
>
> This chapter gives an overview of the application of feedback control
> throughout technological development. In technological systems, the goal
> is to ensure that some physical quantities, such as temperature, pressure,
> velocity, or altitude (and many others), show some desirable, prescribed
> behavior over time. Negative feedback stabilizes, while positive feedback
> amplifies even the initially minor differences.
> Outriggers, mechanical clocks, steam engines, aviation technologies, and
> electronics are the main stages of progress toward the Space Travel Age.
> Feedback control systems played a crucial role in space exploration.
>
> *Chapter 3: Feedback Control in Biological Systems*
>
> Feedback control is a fundamental tool at every level of the biological
> hierarchy, from cellular to socio-ecological systems. It ensures
> homeostasis by adopting a general mechanism for restoring certain states
> after a small perturbation. Dynamical diseases occur due to the impairment
> of control systems. The theory of nonlinear dynamics offers a mathematical
> framework to analyze pathological temporal patterns. It aims to find
> control strategies to shift the physiological parameters back into normal
> ranges.
>
> *Chapter 4: Climate Changes, Wildfires, Tsunamis*
>
> This chapter starts with analyzing the role of positive and negative
> feedback loops in climate systems. Self-reinforcing positive feedback loops
> could result in an irreversible tipping point when climate spins out of
> control, with catastrophic results. Reducing the chance of climate
> catastrophe must become a central focus for civilization today, and
> appropriate feedback control strategies should be implemented.
>
> *Chapter 5: From Laissez-Faire to Greenspan: Feedback Control in Economic
> Systems*
>
> This chapter analyzes a fundamental question: Should economics be
> controlled or not? Is the “invisible hand” and the self-regulation of free
> market capitalism the best possible mechanism, or does the economy need
> governmental intervention? Minsky’s hypothesis suggests that stability
> implies instability. It is an observational fact that the economy shows a
> cyclic pattern: business cycles with different frequencies
> are very general. Uncompensated positive feedback is found to be a general
> mechanism leading to extreme events, among other hyperinflation.
>
> *Chapter 6: From Natural Disasters to Social Riots*
>
> This chapter starts with analyzing whether we should worry about the
> possibility of existential risk. In the subsection about the complex
> system *approach to political instability, several issues, namely
> terrorism, social unrest, and migration, are discussed. Finally, a short
> system-theoretical analysis implies that democracies do better than
> autocracies.*
>
> *Chapter 7: Epilogue: The Narrow Border Between Prosperity and Destruction*
>
> Do we live in the best possible world or the shadow of existential risk?
> The answer is BOTH! To avoid disasters, we need to apply the spirit of
> feedback control.
>
> The ball is in your court,
> Péter Érdi, October 20, 2024
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan en gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2024 12:08 PM
> *To:* Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi en kzoo.edu>; 'fis' <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> Many thanks for your "pre-discussion" message.
> My suggestion to channel such a broad approach is to divide it into two
> parts.
>
> In the first one, the more scientific-technical part (what you mention
> about "the historical role of the concept of feedback".)
> No doubt there are many points of interest there.
> And later on, you could publish a second part about the related vision of
> the "big themes" and risks of our times.
>
> I think in this way the discussion may flow with some easiness.
> Otherwise we would be happy with whatever scheme you prefer.
> All the best,
> --Pedro
>
> El 17/10/2024 a las 22:25, Peter Erdi escribió:
>
> Dear Pedro and Dear FIS Colleagues:
>
> Thank you for your introduction (I will make some slight corrections).
>
> I will need several days to publish my formal introductory text.  I would
> like to discuss with you my thesis:
>
> *There is a narrow border between destruction and prosperity: to ensure
> reasonable growth but avoid existential risk, we must find the fine-tuned
> balance between positive and negative feedback.*
>
> I hope to discuss with you both the historical role of the concept of
> feedback and its possible contribution to destroying or saving the world.
> Apologies for the self-propaganda, I have a book in press
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/978303162438__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VtHcBFGBoyad4iHl_odFp0vK-KMgb5heyIsN8Vz2oPQGT24S62R8XdCGPo-6CYkdsAUTLZINL4_l7hwwC6JEGoV4k-5Y$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/978303162438__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFN2pCEni$>4
> will write a discount code, (apologies again).
>
> Stay tuned,
>
> Péter Érdi
> Henry R. Luce Professor of Complex Systems Studies
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VtHcBFGBoyad4iHl_odFp0vK-KMgb5heyIsN8Vz2oPQGT24S62R8XdCGPo-6CYkdsAUTLZINL4_l7hwwC6JEGhdxbht1$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFIGWr1C6$>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VtHcBFGBoyad4iHl_odFp0vK-KMgb5heyIsN8Vz2oPQGT24S62R8XdCGPo-6CYkdsAUTLZINL4_l7hwwC6JEGv36X3PP$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKttEg2g$>
>  Kalamazoo College
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.kzoo.edu/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFLJkHx4Q$>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> on
> behalf of Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan en gmail.com>
> <pedroc.marijuan en gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 17, 2024 9:58 AM
> *To:* 'fis' <fis en listas.unizar.es> <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
>
>
> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>
> We may start a new discussion session during next days.
>
> Title:
>
> *Complexity and feedback: in nature, technology, and society*
>
> Presenter:
> *Peter Érdi*
> Henry R. Luce Professor
> University of Kalamazoo (MI)
>
> Greetings to all,
> --Pedro
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> FIS Coordination
> *FIS Archives last 10 years:*
> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/
> *List of discussion sessions last 25 years:*
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VtHcBFGBoyad4iHl_odFp0vK-KMgb5heyIsN8Vz2oPQGT24S62R8XdCGPo-6CYkdsAUTLZINL4_l7hwwC6JEGowexpmd$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TM06qZ3D-mizico54YZw0l02tThdpy8xhdwd-35rmpmp5LM3hVvhPm6QcyJkzk8-r75hzcUI7pAEoVj7FK3iHm9j0FfC$>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
>
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> ------------------------------
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