[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 116, Issue 7
shda1
shda1 at 163.com
Sun Nov 10 03:08:49 CET 2024
Dear everyone,
The value and significance of anything should be measured in the long river of history. The impact of Western science on humanity in the past 300 years is indeed significant, but the negative effects of Western science are also too great. In a thousand years, humans may only remember Eastern cognition and civilization, because it was the East that created civilization and inspired Western civilization and Western science. Without Eastern civilization, humans would likely still be primitive, let alone modern science.
Thank you everyone!
At 2024-11-07 01:18:32, "" <fis-request at listas.unizar.es> wrote:
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
> (Pedro C. Mariju?n)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 18:18:27 +0100
>From: Pedro C. Mariju?n <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
>To: fis at listas.unizar.es
>Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity &
> feedback
>Message-ID: <c706bfa8-5bbf-416b-9166-9e08bf1d7599 at gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
>Dear Peter, Joseph, and List,
>
>Thanks for maintaining the discussion. First, let me disagree with some
>of the previous opinions. My own impression on Eastern philosophy is
>that historically it shows an interesting resemblance with some natural
>processes of different sciences (mostly quantum physics), but at the
>level of generalities and without much possibilities of advancing
>scientific knowledge by itself, neither theoretically nor
>experimentally--historically it didn't. And it didn't create social
>schemes of national/supranational order beyond the stigmas and defects
>of Western societies either. Creating complex societies, maintaining
>them and designing efficient institutions is hardly difficult for all
>human cultures, up to now. In my opinion, the 1960s and 1970s cultural
>fashions overvalued the oriental theme (eg, Capra's Tao of Physics).
>Anyhow, I am open to introduce nuances in the above generalizations.
>
>I much appreciate, Joseph, your mention of Michael Conrad. As veteran
>FISers know, his "vertical information flow" was a seminal contribution
>to launch the FIS enterprise, more than 30 years ago... My own opinion
>on the new physics he championed is of very relative value. We really
>joined views at the molecular level (enzymes, molecular computing,
>molecular recognition), in the schemes of intra-neuronal processing, in
>neuronal populations, in adaptability... and also in the need to link
>these natural science views with genuine human processes and the
>characteristics of social-economic realms. His chapter in 1996 FIS
>proceedings (BioSystems) is a great compilation of his whole thought.
>
>About other comments, this is not the place for me to argue in favor of
>solving the conundrums of the information term. Peter has chosen the
>discussion of an alternative, important term, feedback, that has a
>towering presence in nature and in behavioral and social processes in
>general. Every time we engage in conversation we implicitly expect the
>multiple materialization of these feedbacks--or ask for them with a ?
>sign. Or in any occasion we may try to buy or sell something we suffer
>them. The market is but a gigantic, distributed system of feedbacks (and
>of other processes)... Right, we may have many intriguing points to
>discuss. I am personally fascinated by the human omnipresence of
>laughter feedbacks.
>
>To close this brief response, let me state that we have insensibly
>entered into the genre of narratives: tentatively trying to anchor them
>in different disciplinary views. It is tantalizing, but perhaps we
>cannot advance as far as we wish neither in the coherence that Joseph
>was inquiring nor in the inquire on feedbacks themselves. But aren't
>they necessary exercises within the "Art of Knowledge"?
>
>Best regards--Pedro
>
> ?El 06/11/2024 a las 10:37, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch escribi?:
>> Dear Peter and All,
>> In spite of much goodwill, the discussion still seems to me to lack
>> agreement on the nature of the foundational contributions to science
>> that a more "Eastern" philosophy and logic might bring. The reference
>> to Fromm, new to me, was of interest, but has he not just served up
>> another
>> duality of the kind I think we should avoid?
>> To paraphrase Stafford Beer, "To have *and* to be, that humanity (or
>> whatever)".
>> I say this, again not be to "contrary", but to try to make sure that
>> no principles get stated in isolation from their environment, not only
>> the equivalent of spatial but also temporal.
>> As Pedro and Peter know, Michael Conrad conceived of some new physics
>> at the most fundamental level of reality. I would like to ask our two
>> "rocks" if and how these principles might help clarify some of the
>> current biological (or biophysical) issues in the debate.
>> Best wishes,
>> Joseph
>>> ---------- Message d'origine ----------
>>> De : Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>
>>> ? : Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>
>>> CC : fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> Date : 29.10.2024 23:33 CET
>>> Sujet : Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
>>> Dear Peter, all,
>>> I think there is a critical question here about the extent to which
>>> the cybernetics and complexity science are haunted by Darwin. Both
>>> Gordana's and Sheri's posts highlight the emerging revision of
>>> biology, and we should thank Alex for sparking this with reference to
>>> perennial philosophy.
>>> To see whether there is a case to answer with regard to cybernetics
>>> and Darwin, it is helpful to examine some of the contemporary
>>> critiques of cybernetics from social theorists. For example, Erich
>>> Fromm complains:?"people of the cybernetic religion constantly adapt
>>> their egos according to the principle: "I am as you desire me"" (To
>>> have or To Be, p121).
>>> Equally Horkheimer argues: "Just as all life today tends increasingly
>>> to be subjected to rationalization and planning, so the life of each
>>> individual, including his most hidden impulses, which formerly
>>> constituted his private domain, must now take the demands of
>>> rationalization and planning into account: the individual's
>>> self-preservation presupposes his adjustment to the requirements for
>>> the preservation of the system. He no longer has room to evade the
>>> system. And just as the process of rationalization is no longer the
>>> result of the anonymous forces of the market, but is decided in the
>>> consciousness of a planning minority, so the mass of subjects must
>>> deliberately adjust themselves: the subject must, so to speak, devote
>>> all his energies to being 'in and of the movement of things' in the
>>> terms of the pragmatistic definition" (Eclipse of Reason)
>>> The key uniting theme is "adaptation to environment" - it is
>>> phenotypic adaptation to a present environment. Meanwhile emergence
>>> is accounted for through synchronic stochastic processes.
>>> The new biology is different, and more in tune with what Alex had to
>>> say. Phenotypic selection is driven by internal selection mechanisms
>>> which reference an evolutionary history of epigenetic inheritance.
>>> Moreover, phenotypic selection serves an epigenetic purpose, where
>>> the phenotype is a vehicle for the next generation of adaptation. In
>>> other words, this is fundamentally diachronic, historically-oriented
>>> selection. It's not a thermostat... and, perhaps more importantly,
>>> it's not random.
>>> Interestingly, the basic idea of internal selection (albeit without
>>> the historical/epigenetic diachronic mechanism) has been around for a
>>> long time. Very interesting to compare with Lancelot Law Whyte here:
>>> Lancelot Law Whyte, Internal factors in evolution - PhilPapers
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://philpapers.org/rec/WHYIFI__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!URFV9khS44ITjIXltk8cDIk0LIS3euhXR4PrH7HZHTlukEZXKGStaHartpCsSghtMn4bQphN3qzqGLghPbZieQA$>
>>>
>>> So perhaps the first challenge is to decide whether there is a
>>> problem here - whether our thinking about complexity and feedback is
>>> deficient in a fundamental way, which relates to Darwinian theory.
>>> (This may of course include our thinking about information!). If
>>> people believe this is the case, then the challenge is to think what
>>> we do about it.
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 at 21:55, Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you for your feedback. I needed a little time to give up my
>>> initial intention. I had some framework in mind about the concept
>>> of feedback, but during the discussion, I realized I had the
>>> chance to read and digest other ideas.
>>> ++ I am afraid that some emails went to my junk mail box and
>>> might have been deleted. If I did not answer, I probably
>>> unintentionally deleted your mail. Please resend if it is
>>> possible! ++
>>> Where are we now?
>>> - Karl ?suggested: "Let us build a feedback based circular system
>>> that functions, at first. Let us investigate in a subsequent
>>> step, what are critical components of that system."
>>> - Alex offers an optimistic perspective. He states that there is
>>> an approach, namely Perennial Philosophy, that helps to avoid
>>> catastrophic extinction.
>>> - Mark associates Perennial Philosophy with the concept of
>>> Phenotype as an Agent for Epigenetic Inheritance (based on a
>>> paper by Torday & Miller. Denis Noble and ?Philip Ball were
>>> mentioned.
>>> - Joe mentioned French Philosophy?Jean Baudrillard, and
>>> implicitly postmodernism. I am not familiar with the works of
>>> Augustin Berque. With a little jump I mention hermeneutics, and
>>> the cyclic perpsective of understanding. I believe that
>>> hermeneutics is an important concept in brain theory (with Ichiro
>>> Tsuda Hermeneutic approach to the brain: Process versus Device?
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=q832g60AAAAJ&citation_for_view=q832g60AAAAJ:Y0pCki6q_DkC__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_D8vYUVv$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=q832g60AAAAJ&citation_for_view=q832g60AAAAJ:Y0pCki6q_DkC__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCUovXjy9$>
>>> )
>>> Gordana's post is a game-changer in our discussion. We all know
>>> that the ?Modern (neo-Darwinian) Synthesis has been challenged,
>>> and she gave a list of newer ideas of the "Extended Evolutionary
>>> Synthesis" by Denis Noble.
>>> I like the idea of analyzing evolution in cybernetic terms.
>>> Wiener's approach is based on the assumption (?) that machines
>>> are organisms are goal-seeking systems. How about evolution? As
>>> we know, neo-Darwinism assumes random mutation and implies that
>>> evolution is open-ended without a goal. I (not very profoundly)
>>> know some papers by Daniel W McShea about Evolutionary trends and
>>> goal-directedness.
>>> This is a huge topic, and I am not the most appropriate person to
>>> lead the discussion. In any case, one defender of the now
>>> classical theory is Jerry Coyne. See his blog
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2024/02/12/yet-another-misguided-attempt-to-revise-evolution/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_IWVzX0J$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2024/02/12/yet-another-misguided-attempt-to-revise-evolution/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCYtcx6-5$>
>>>
>>> Briefly, I saw Sheri's paper in BioSystems when it was published,
>>> but I have to read it more attentively. The concept of
>>> self-referential information processing is very important to me.
>>> So, my dear friends, how can we continue the conversation?
>>> If you are in Europe or in India, good night!
>>> Peter
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Markose, Sheri <scher at essex.ac.uk>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2024 1:40 PM
>>> *To:* Gordana Dodig Crnkovic
>>> <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Peter Erdi
>>> <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>
>>> *Cc:* fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Subject:* RE: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
>>>
>>> Dear Peter, Gordana and All
>>>
>>> Let me add to the major *Revisions to the theory of Evolution*
>>> theme, which has come about as? result of advances in gene
>>> science.?? This has moved the needle away from the flawed
>>> *Neo-Darwinian Synthesis (NDS)* on random mutation and natural
>>> selection.
>>>
>>> Gordana in the list you gave below, please note that the major
>>> game changer to the *NDS* came with the discoveries made by the
>>> ?1983 Nobel Prize Winner Barbara McClintock who discovered what
>>> are called transposable elements (TE) ?that scissor and paste (
>>> Transposons) ?and copy paste (Retrotransposons). Genomic dynamics
>>> and changes or genomic /novelty mostly require Retrotransposons
>>> which move around in the host genome and convert their copied RNA
>>> into DNA of the genome by reverse transcription typically in a
>>> new site.? ?Think how we edit a digital word doc by copy? paste?
>>> No random mutation here.
>>>
>>> Amazingly, 98% of the advanced eukaryote genome is made up of
>>> such non-coding transposable elements (mistakenly called junk
>>> DNA) while only 2% is protein coding.
>>>
>>> As TEs have viral software origins, this source of diversity can
>>> also be harmful to the genome and has to be kept under check by a
>>> stringent means.? Many moons ago my FIS contribution called this
>>> */genomic blockchain/* using a 21 century invention where digital
>>> record keeping ?can keep original blocks secure from internal and
>>> external (bilo)malware and evolve complexity that is not
>>> adversarial to the earlier blocks.? Unlike manmade blockchain of
>>> Bitcoin, genomic blockchain operates on self-referential
>>> information processing.? This can be found in 2022
>>> complexification of eukaryote paper of mine
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104718__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_NKTF4Rn$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104718__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCcXSWFQ1$>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> All best regards
>>>
>>> Sheri
>>>
>>> *From:*Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> *On Behalf Of *Gordana
>>> Dodig Crnkovic
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2024 7:48 AM
>>> *To:* Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>
>>> *Cc:* fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
>>>
>>> *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside our organisation. Do
>>> not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the
>>> sender and know the content is safe. If you are not sure it is
>>> safe, please contact the IT Helpdesk.
>>>
>>> Dear Peter and All,
>>>
>>> I want to comment on the ?*revision of the theory of evolution*?.
>>>
>>> If you want details, let me know and I will send you a five-page
>>> file.
>>>
>>> The ?revision? of the theory of evolution? sounds problematic,
>>> but it is the natural development of the theory. That is
>>> happening in all sciences all the time, and recently we have
>>> witnessed very important developments in the theory of evolution
>>> that I am convinced you will be able to explain in terms of
>>> cybernetics and feedback mechanisms. The inclusion of principles
>>> from *complexity science* and *cybernetics* supports the notion
>>> that evolutionary processes are more adaptable and responsive
>>> than Darwin?s original model, emphasizing interdependent feedback
>>> mechanisms.
>>>
>>> These advancements provide a broader, more integrative view of
>>> evolution, suggesting that the traditional model of random
>>> mutation and selection is only part of the story.
>>>
>>> What is typically considered the ?theory of evolution? today is
>>> ?*Modern (neo-Darwinian) synthesis*? which is also a ?revision?
>>> of the original Darwin?s theory that added genes as a fundamental
>>> explanation mechanism.
>>>
>>> Recent developments in the theory of evolution, particularly
>>> those proposed by scientists like *Denis Noble, Eva Jablonka*,
>>> and others are reshaping how we understand evolutionary processes
>>> beyond the classical framework of Modern (neo-Darwinian) synthesis.
>>>
>>> Here are some key recent advancements
>>>
>>> *Denis Noble and the "Extended Evolutionary Synthesis" (EES)*
>>>
>>> *Rethinking the Central Dogma*: Noble, a prominent physiologist,
>>> challenges the idea of the central dogma of molecular biology,
>>> which states that information flows only from DNA to RNA to
>>> protein. He suggests that biological processes are more
>>> interactive and interconnected, with feedback mechanisms that can
>>> allow information to flow in reverse and across different parts
>>> of a system.
>>>
>>> *Multi-level Selection and Interconnected Systems*: Noble?s
>>> research emphasizes that evolutionary change isn?t only driven by
>>> gene-level mutations but also by the organism?s interactions at
>>> multiple biological levels. This perspective argues that genes,
>>> cells, tissues, and organs can all influence evolutionary
>>> outcomes, challenging the reductionist view that genes alone
>>> determine phenotypes.
>>>
>>> *Evolutionary Processes Beyond Genes*
>>>
>>> *Epigenetics and Plasticity*: The EES incorporates
>>> epigenetics?heritable changes in gene expression not driven by
>>> DNA sequence changes?as a significant factor. This flexibility
>>> allows organisms to respond more rapidly to environmental
>>> changes, which may also be passed on to offspring under certain
>>> conditions.
>>>
>>> *Niche Construction*: Another central concept of EES is niche
>>> construction, which is the process by which organisms actively
>>> shape their environments, which in turn influences their own
>>> evolution. For example, beavers create dams that transform local
>>> ecosystems, affecting not only their survival but also that of
>>> other species.
>>>
>>> *Emergent Behaviors and Self-Organization*
>>>
>>> *Biological Complexity and Adaptation*: Agent-based approaches
>>> demonstrate how self-organized behaviors, which emerge from
>>> simple rules at the individual level, can lead to complex
>>> adaptation strategies. These emergent patterns are not always
>>> predictable from the initial conditions and suggest that
>>> evolution may have more directionality than previously thought.
>>>
>>> *Evolution as a Systemic Process*: Instead of viewing evolution
>>> as a linear, gene-centered process, newer models support the idea
>>> of evolution as a systemic process involving feedback loops and
>>> interactions across many levels of biological organization.
>>>
>>> *Interdisciplinary Approaches in Evolutionary Theory*
>>>
>>> Fields like *systems biology* and *ecology* are increasingly
>>> intersecting with evolutionary biology, highlighting that
>>> organisms and their environments evolve together in a dynamic
>>> feedback loop.
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Darwin's agential materials**,
>>> *https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37156924/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_KZbvVwM$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fpubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov*2f37156924*2f&c=E,1,_5EkdnmYC7CYss96onPyTcRuIp4UjwaT12Tyd-C6q8pLL5x9mEBdNM__jMujN8CEyYcgMvPu9--_lPjOLmAnzvl03vWrRX10QRRZSeRS-XgMRg,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCUsokdQo$>
>>>
>>> The concept of an ?agent approach? in evolutionary biology, where
>>> individual cells exhibit goal-directed behaviors or "agency,"
>>> represents an intriguing shift in understanding living systems.
>>> This perspective, advanced Michael Levin and Denis Noble,
>>> proposes that cells and other biological units are not passive,
>>> deterministic entities but rather active participants with their
>>> own forms of "goals" and responsive behaviors. Here?s a look at
>>> the agent-based approach with this view of cellular agency.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Gordana
>>>
>>> *From: *Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Peter
>>> Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, 29 October 2024 at 03:25
>>> *To: *"joe.brenner at bluewin.ch" <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>, Mark
>>> Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>
>>> *Cc: *fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
>>>
>>> Dear Alex, Joe, Mark , and All:
>>>
>>> I find the appearance of remarkable concepts in our discussion
>>> very challenging: perennial philosophy, revision of the theory of
>>> evolution, and postmodern French philosophy.
>>>
>>> I am digesting your thoughts, and hope to send a more substantial
>>> post about 18 hours later.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_CagUBF0$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fblogs.kzoo.edu*2fperdi*2f&c=E,1,bz0FfE_9Ks00ng5llmcu6Y25y6S7P4sC0OrOYmZQM5UWQI5N99zuXQxwt9A9L4gv3v6R1AExli8BKikW_71JJsMMRngt_GhRIU8Z50Pzk7Ue&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCWNAwDTf$>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_CzHVi5J$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V9pGWVnrGix8iYOTIEtL1iJbcL5my7XkJK-TOHuDN4ah3gtOBc-Na4v5AXVKEhgYcA6_avZLWIX1y7Ijlr1U2T3Z$>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:*joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 27, 2024 6:16 AM
>>> *To:* Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback
>>>
>>> Dear Mark and Peter,
>>>
>>> Your last two notes taken together, seem to me to offer a
>>> remarkable basis for further discussion. Both modify
>>> "circularity" in such a way (sic!) that there is just enough left
>>> of the simplistic notion of circle while focussing non-circular
>>> dynamics.
>>>
>>> The French philosopher Jean Baudrillard (1929 - 2007) suggested
>>> two antagonistic forms in reality in a 2004 book (my translation):
>>>
>>> Integral Reality: the irreversible movement of the totality of
>>> the world.
>>>
>>> Dual Form: the internal reversibility of the irreversible
>>> movement of the Real.
>>>
>>> To avoid having to apply the overly semantic term of
>>> "contradictory" to these double, better recursive, movements, one
>>> may handle both by reference to the change of parts from actual
>>> to potential, and /vice versa. /
>>>
>>> A further advance been made by the contemporary French
>>> philosopher Augustin Berque. He proposes complementing
>>> transduction by the more complex term /trajection /which takes
>>> into account the logical implications of our own existence, Links
>>> are thus possible to logics "of the middle" like those of the Orient.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> Le 27.10.2024 00:14 CEST, Mark Johnson
>>> <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> a ?crit :
>>>
>>> Dear Alex and Peter
>>>
>>> Perrenialism is very close to the biological theory
>>> articulated here:
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5037349/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_CvCN-3g$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fpmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov*2farticles*2fPMC5037349*2f&c=E,1,N5VX3UCXn_QhFPtHJD3YaSm8xlCbXYiyVZMd9KMv43SUj9oNPVYuaJSE-BPXf0h12EjnUbT_jn1hwjK36LgSlthOe1dzUZvtlTXGwxIwv0rFYtJKFrQ,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCSEJil8T$>
>>>
>>> Alex, this connection leapt out at me after reading your comment!
>>>
>>> It makes me wonder whether Darwinism haunts cybernetics. The
>>> view in the Torday/Miller paper suggests that the Darwinian
>>> paradigm of selection among phenotypes is incorrect, where
>>> instead phenotypes are agents of epigenetic inheritance in
>>> service to cellular internal selection, with the "perennial"
>>> zygote as the focus, not the phenotype.
>>>
>>> While there is an increasing body of empirical evidence to
>>> support a cell-based view of evolution (currently argued by
>>> Denis Noble, Philip Ball, as well as Torday and colleagues),
>>> maybe the important question is to ask what this might mean
>>> for the cybernetic thinking that Peter is discussing.
>>>
>>> A few points strike me as interesting:
>>>
>>> 1. Circularity is a much better term than feedback, because
>>> it captures a deeper process of homeorhesis. But two
>>> questions concerning this are "what is stabilised?" and "who
>>> says?"
>>>
>>> 2. Transduction is a more precise name for the process
>>> implicated in "circularity". Behind that is conservation of
>>> energy on the one hand, and conversion of energy on the
>>> other. Cells and organisms are transducers, but the
>>> transduction process happens within them. It may operate with
>>> reference to the endogenised history of the cell in its own
>>> constitution.
>>>
>>> 3. Transduction must involve both selection and niche
>>> construction. The selection is both internal, referencing the
>>> evolutionary history of the cell, and external in maintaining
>>> equipoise with the environment. This selection process is
>>> multidimensional, featuring stochasticity (see Denis Noble),
>>> signals, constraints and coordination.
>>>
>>> 4. The transduction process relies on cells being observers
>>> of other cells and of themselves. It cannot work without
>>> self-reference. This is probably to restate the Conant-Ashby
>>> good regulator theorem, or Rosen's anticipatory systems, or
>>> Stafford Beer's "System 4" in the Viable System Model.
>>>
>>> 5. Systems people get tied up in knots when failing to
>>> apprehend the dimensional difference between stochasticity
>>> (noise), signals, constraints and coordination. We need
>>> better conceptual tools for dealing with this.
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, 09:39 Alex Hankey,
>>> <alexhankey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Peter, and Fis Members,
>>>
>>> About 1970, the Futurology Research Group under Dr.
>>> Willis Harman
>>>
>>> at SRI (Stanford Research Institute) showed that the only
>>> system of thought apparently able to save mankind from
>>> extinction was the Perennial Philosophy.
>>>
>>> Developments and events over the past half century, such
>>> as the Enron crisis, Bankruptcies of banks such as
>>> London's Barings Bank, caused by unauthorised investments
>>> by senior employees, or the climate crisis and
>>> deforestation of the Amazon, driven by corporate greed
>>> etc, suggest that this is true.
>>>
>>> I live in India, the only country that subscribes to the
>>> Perennial Philosophy as the foundation of its 5 main
>>> religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and
>>> Zoroastrianism, where I conduct research on the
>>> relationship between Science and Spirituality. I
>>> therefore feel that I can state with some authority that,
>>> by and large, India sets an example in a number of areas,
>>> which are consistent with the conclusions of Harman's
>>> futurology work at SRI.
>>>
>>> Looking at the violence being generated on different
>>> levels in North America, in the Middle East, in Russia,
>>> and by the Chinese Communist Party and its minions, we
>>> can see many threats to our future, some of which are
>>> ongoing, and others that promise to emerge before the end
>>> of the present decade.
>>>
>>> The Perennial Philosophy, as described in Aldous Huxley's
>>> book of that name, is embodied in the word's of Swami
>>> Vivekananda, one of India's greatest spiritual leaders in
>>> the late 19th century. Vivekananda stated, 'Man is born
>>> to become Divine'. He did not mean in the present
>>> life-time, but rather by gaining greater and greater
>>> experience of Life through the cycles of death and
>>> rebirth, each human soul holds the potential to make the
>>> transition from being bound by his/her thoughts, words
>>> and actions, to a level where by serving Divine levels,
>>> and acting in accordance with instructions received from
>>> the Divine, he / she rises to be on a level on a par with
>>> the Divine.
>>>
>>> Several of India's greatest spiritual teachers today
>>> exemplify that transition.
>>>
>>> By bringing their work to humanity as a whole, it may be
>>> possible to prevent our destruction, and enter a time of
>>> endless prosperity.
>>>
>>> But only by subscribing to the universal values of Truth,
>>> Goodness and Beauty (violently rejected by the CCP) can
>>> we hope for this to happen.
>>>
>>> All best wishes,
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Alex Hankey
>>>
>>> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 at 05:01, Peter Erdi
>>> <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear FISer:
>>>
>>> /Personal Intro:/
>>>
>>> I am happily back in this community: I attended the
>>> 1994, 1996, and 2005 conferences. In the last twenty
>>> years, I have been active in the neural network
>>> community
>>> (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.inns.org/fellows-senior-members/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_I5gdhQQ$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fwww.inns.org*2ffellows-senior-members*2f&c=E,1,7FOnD4qB_uw6TuWoe9krf9vwGq-VMu-9IvPVcdetl6hyJyNI_oJzWyUwKGq3yFkB563b9dGFYFIHF4Us67ZezVyIYI_JG-uCak6A_g16ZqqGpCSzxSGmGduLOw,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCZeWJKhM$>).
>>> In the previous five years, I published three books,
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_OE8wKZA$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFP9sLo6U$>?,
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_Nn5vSpB$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$>
>>>
>>>
>>> The third is in press:
>>>
>>> *Feedback: How to Destroy or Save the World *
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/9783031624384__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_LeZoTXM$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$>
>>>
>>>
>>> (There is a 20% discount code at checkout on
>>> link.springer.com
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/link.springer.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Szk4lYPkGi5BDvo8We0ODRu28kt6a19QJOVQUBkdaJRV_hLqwotelvKUE_hfvBDuedR8kcjhT7NR1WBbv80w-Q$>:
>>>
>>>
>>> /I9rXjXjXbr7UGE/?/ Valid Oct 10, 2024 ? Nov 7, 2024).
>>> The Foreword was written by Michael Arbib.
>>>
>>> I hope you don't mind if I hope to have a lively
>>> discussion about both feedback control and its
>>> potential role in answering the question:
>>>
>>> *Will humanity survive, and will our grandchildren
>>> live in prosperity? Or should we worry about the
>>> possibility of humanity's extinction? *
>>>
>>> //
>>>
>>> /Hypothesis: /There is a narrow border between
>>> destruction and prosperity: to ensure reasonable
>>> growth but avoid existential risk, we must find a
>>> fine-tuned balance between positive and negative
>>> feedback. My attempt is not to deal with the
>>> impossible task, to prove (certainly not in the
>>> spirit of formal feedback control theory), but to
>>> support the belief. Chapters 1 - 5 are about the
>>> historical roles of feedback control in nature,
>>> technology, and society. Chapters 6 and 7 discuss the
>>> dichotomy of destroying or saving the world and the
>>> role of feedback control in avoiding huge catastrophes.
>>>
>>> I suggest starting the discussion with a specific
>>> topic, but I am open to any comments, initial
>>> remarks, etc.
>>>
>>> /Chapter 1: Norbert Wiener's Dream: Technology, Life,
>>> and Society/
>>>
>>> This chapter overviews the birth of Cybernetics as a
>>> general theory of
>>>
>>> goal-seeking systems. It introduces the notion of
>>> positive and negative feedback and gives credit to
>>> the General Systems Theory, which gave a framework
>>> for integrating the natural sciences with the social
>>> sciences. Modern computers made possible the
>>> simulation of social systems based on causal
>>> relationships among state variables, leading to
>>> various predicted scenarios about the world's future,
>>> some pessimistic.
>>>
>>> One clear insight is that uncontrolled technological
>>> progress may negatively affect the environment, and
>>> we need to maintain a balance between economic growth
>>> and sustainability.
>>>
>>> /Chapter 2: Feedback Control in the History of
>>> Technology/
>>>
>>> This?chapter gives an overview of the application of
>>> feedback control
>>>
>>> throughout technological development. In
>>> technological systems, the goal is to ensure that
>>> some physical quantities, such as temperature,
>>> pressure, velocity, or altitude (and many others),
>>> show some desirable, prescribed behavior over time.
>>> Negative feedback stabilizes, while positive feedback
>>> amplifies even the initially minor differences.
>>>
>>> Outriggers, mechanical clocks, steam engines,
>>> aviation technologies, and electronics are the main
>>> stages of progress toward the Space Travel Age.
>>> Feedback control systems played a crucial role in
>>> space exploration.
>>>
>>> /Chapter 3: Feedback Control in Biological Systems/
>>>
>>> //
>>>
>>> Feedback control is a fundamental tool at every level
>>> of the biological hierarchy, from cellular to
>>> socio-ecological systems. It ensures homeostasis by
>>> adopting a general mechanism for restoring certain
>>> states after a small perturbation. Dynamical diseases
>>> occur due to the impairment of control systems. The
>>> theory of nonlinear dynamics offers a mathematical
>>> framework to analyze pathological temporal patterns.
>>> It aims to find control strategies to shift the
>>> physiological parameters back into normal ranges.
>>>
>>> /Chapter 4: Climate Changes, Wildfires, Tsunamis/
>>>
>>> This chapter starts with analyzing the role of
>>> positive and negative feedback loops in climate
>>> systems. Self-reinforcing positive feedback loops
>>> could result in an irreversible tipping point when
>>> climate spins out of control, with catastrophic
>>> results. Reducing the chance of climate catastrophe
>>> must become a central focus for civilization today,
>>> and appropriate feedback control strategies should be
>>> implemented.
>>>
>>> /Chapter 5: From Laissez-Faire to Greenspan: Feedback
>>> Control in Economic Systems/
>>>
>>> This chapter analyzes a fundamental question: Should
>>> economics be controlled or not? Is the ?invisible
>>> hand? and the self-regulation of free
>>> market?capitalism the best possible mechanism, or
>>> does the economy need governmental intervention?
>>> Minsky?s hypothesis suggests that stability implies
>>> instability. It is an observational fact that the
>>> economy shows a cyclic pattern: business cycles with
>>> different frequencies
>>>
>>> are very?general. Uncompensated positive feedback is
>>> found to be a general mechanism leading to extreme
>>> events, among other hyperinflation.
>>>
>>> /Chapter?6: From Natural Disasters to Social Riots/
>>>
>>> This chapter starts with analyzing whether we should
>>> worry about the
>>>
>>> possibility of existential risk. In the subsection
>>> about the complex system /approach to?political
>>> instability, several issues, namely terrorism, social
>>> unrest, and migration, are discussed. Finally, a
>>> short system-theoretical analysis implies that
>>> democracies do better than autocracies./
>>>
>>> //
>>>
>>> /Chapter 7: Epilogue: The Narrow Border Between
>>> Prosperity and Destruction/
>>>
>>> Do we live in the best possible world or the shadow
>>> of existential risk? The answer is BOTH! To avoid
>>> disasters, we need to apply the spirit of feedback
>>> control.
>>>
>>> The ball is in your court,
>>>
>>> P?ter ?rdi, October 20, 2024
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:*?Pedro C. Mariju?n <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:*?Friday, October 18, 2024 12:08 PM
>>> *To:*?Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>; 'fis'
>>> <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Subject:*?Re: [Fis] New Discussion
>>> Session--Complexity & feedback
>>>
>>> Dear Peter,
>>>
>>> Many thanks for your "pre-discussion" message.
>>>
>>> My suggestion to channel such a broad approach is to
>>> divide it into two parts.
>>>
>>> In the first one, the more scientific-technical part
>>> (what you mention about "the historical role of the
>>> concept of feedback".)
>>>
>>> No doubt there are many points of interest there.
>>>
>>> And later on, you could publish a second part about
>>> the related vision of the "big themes" and risks of
>>> our times.
>>>
>>> I think in this way the discussion may flow with some
>>> easiness.
>>>
>>> Otherwise we would be happy with whatever scheme you
>>> prefer.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> --Pedro
>>>
>>> El 17/10/2024 a las 22:25, Peter Erdi escribi?:
>>>
>>> Dear Pedro and Dear FIS Colleagues:
>>>
>>> Thank you for your introduction (I will make some
>>> slight corrections).
>>>
>>> I will need several days to publish my formal
>>> introductory text.? I would like to discuss with
>>> you my thesis:
>>>
>>> *There is a narrow border between destruction and
>>> prosperity: to ensure reasonable growth but avoid
>>> existential risk, we must find the fine-tuned
>>> balance between positive and negative feedback.*
>>>
>>> I hope to discuss with you both the historical
>>> role of the concept of feedback and its possible
>>> contribution to destroying or saving the world.
>>> Apologies for the self-propaganda, I have a book
>>> in press
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/978303162438__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_E0M4Ueu$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/link.springer.com/book/978303162438__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFN2pCEni$>4?
>>> will write a discount code, (apologies again).
>>>
>>> Stay tuned,
>>>
>>> P?ter ?rdi
>>>
>>> Henry R. Luce Professor of Complex Systems Studies
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_CagUBF0$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fblogs.kzoo.edu*2fperdi*2f&c=E,1,DXZxDUtw-vuIauMyxqq1G4QdM5IKx_WHJQK7kYtxUGgDE9KRjaIdG-4G0CXdcL1Ogi79GmYSABCYOreR5MR5UmqmpzGp4c__tnNT_bsMF5o8KvRrHTuQ&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCbiDEkbO$>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_CzHVi5J$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKttEg2g$>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kalamazoo College
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kzoo.edu/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFLJkHx4Q$>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:*?Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>
>>> <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>?on behalf
>>> of Pedro C. Mariju?n <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:*?Thursday, October 17, 2024 9:58 AM
>>> *To:*?'fis' <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Subject:*?[Fis] New Discussion
>>> Session--Complexity & feedback
>>>
>>> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>>>
>>> We may start a new discussion session during next
>>> days.
>>>
>>> Title:
>>>
>>> *Complexity and feedback: in nature, technology,
>>> and society*
>>>
>>> Presenter:
>>>
>>> *Peter ?rdi*
>>> Henry R. Luce Professor
>>> University of Kalamazoo (MI)
>>>
>>> Greetings to all,
>>>
>>> --Pedro
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Pedro C. Mariju?n
>>> FIS Coordination
>>> /FIS Archives last 10 years:/
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es*2fpipermail*2ffis*2f&c=E,1,WIf3BELTgtvnLFR__dZNKBPBmGkY9p535L-dnLn2GvzBazXmvkAn-VpOq5u47zl214lkW7Lo0xKiRRveHEsKRdNaGGJZ8wIsYeLQx3oDpOFN&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCXIO4KlN$>
>>>
>>> /List of discussion sessions last 25 years:/
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_HCWFzzZ$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2ffis.sciforum.net*2ffis-discussion-sessions*2f&c=E,1,SIU1_QkEFFA5jd36QjfKAZB390mFOLqhNZs110xrUmyNXE1eG0hmnA2R9h4Umjxd4g6imul2RTMk9WuoYkdonYEciShN5RJdWQrhXlNaIdT5wI0,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCUYIcRz4$>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *Error! Filename not specified.*
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TM06qZ3D-mizico54YZw0l02tThdpy8xhdwd-35rmpmp5LM3hVvhPm6QcyJkzk8-r75hzcUI7pAEoVj7FK3iHhgQVZWt$>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Libre de virus.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_N-HfZeA$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TM06qZ3D-mizico54YZw0l02tThdpy8xhdwd-35rmpmp5LM3hVvhPm6QcyJkzk8-r75hzcUI7pAEoVj7FK3iHhgQVZWt$>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es*2fcgi-bin*2fmailman*2flistinfo*2ffis&c=E,1,mv70eDHSkwzLq8dgfam2czStC0YWMIS79QqCFRUyP1WhvE9c2lJ36ASdeVyf_Jx1LvrgZJOzHqbhoGlSahgP23npVgV9EsTRZnRBHgmDJXg,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCYVnQtnv$>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> INFORMACI?N SOBRE PROTECCI?N DE DATOS DE CAR?CTER
>>> PERSONAL
>>>
>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de
>>> correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>> Puede encontrar toda la informaci?n sobre como
>>> tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
>>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fsicuz.unizar.es*2finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&c=E,1,6G6ZQz0RPY6TZcqL0mb1ZAbIBxfLKHdYsJBnWTqHauidCB4HhHy6iKuvtyAjCclOvEcXbwOGTBVxx08SHXEMPsuu08Qfil3AnIvrx-Uz4D_qitRg&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCbDXujsi$>
>>>
>>> Recuerde que si est? suscrito a una lista voluntaria
>>> Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci?n en
>>> el momento en que lo desee.
>>> http://listas.unizar.es
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es&c=E,1,YXQoZT9wBP7dSoYNK3cmG_BitzLJhQgXDHcoPMROmqWLwT5ixaIIbggsa4JApmBPOH8L-Qsdttiojxb0RV0F2yZE1YDNdKu3iOXuQRi1taChWDh2cb8,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCVReAzdT$>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon
>>> Causa)?Professor Emeritus of Biology,
>>>
>>> MIT World Peace University,
>>>
>>> 124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038
>>>
>>> Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195
>>>
>>> Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789
>>>
>>> WhatsApp: as for Mobile, India
>>>
>>> _________________________
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es*2fcgi-bin*2fmailman*2flistinfo*2ffis&c=E,1,TsCQNEmCOuZKOQvCbrzx6CoolqtAKQ9nsVCRP9uXc05LCAcTwXm9cFGaQRwivVkAJlmMISilG-XDZ30qJklosnhFYqYIVwnaqWfTEvnKaDQQ&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCQwKtgYy$>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> INFORMACI?N SOBRE PROTECCI?N DE DATOS DE CAR?CTER PERSONAL
>>>
>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de
>>> correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>> Puede encontrar toda la informaci?n sobre como tratamos
>>> sus datos en el siguiente enlace:
>>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fsicuz.unizar.es*2finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&c=E,1,bmJ6tVoxDQAwuBGwJS1ekFnC1AyN1BBTKbD9asEc0jj70FkAubugyyZQG85ILllopZpqwnTV0uMlN4T5Zi5nCWN3hGQsUtM_bbVR_CdPLoFxzvtK80FDQA1q1g,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCZRHQizV$>
>>>
>>> Recuerde que si est? suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud.
>>> puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci?n en el
>>> momento en que lo desee.
>>> http://listas.unizar.es
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es&c=E,1,qnJ7Q2VlMQy35GyRhGrnYKFtiCuy8h3OaNbI6H4gFYHJttlaceH3wHQnsBJDImSQyE4yordrcEv-ILooykMK0oV-naz9le6G4UjbqxdL&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCe5-M6om$>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es*2fcgi-bin*2fmailman*2flistinfo*2ffis&c=E,1,qfHi-RsKn-n5GMX3bV7SCVzAtRgOhpBxHMjHZcGutJ8zSCT1Vdu8YZVYXtTM44WxK3khdTSMLEE61mfrJsG9XnTVSz6Ixh8x5n2Qt-bMpE77sGkeW4BlYT4DTA,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCWyIgSbt$>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>> INFORMACI?N SOBRE PROTECCI?N DE DATOS DE CAR?CTER PERSONAL
>>>
>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
>>> gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>> Puede encontrar toda la informaci?n sobre como tratamos sus
>>> datos en el siguiente enlace:
>>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fsicuz.unizar.es*2finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&c=E,1,kWI0MEZ9dW5CN9ZSM-JY4_-ru91gk3uGVvR5KpRl_n7CMhTiEVNzukiwShSIC4OWiTx_8t6GNOWiec8COrFWBcwXcj7rXyt4lBh4zSOOZmVe&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCappxOuy$>
>>>
>>> Recuerde que si est? suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud.
>>> puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci?n en el momento
>>> en que lo desee.
>>> http://listas.unizar.es
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2flistas.unizar.es&c=E,1,SIKGlP8kO8R205ckBWzoOWfKkMXZK7rc3YG2RjOSkatnfgd2fu-P-oEuGlhYvAkYlT9or28k2eyKuABCR7cbL1E-7-CM-h5yj8Zg2wj6ffdihXsDqcNwBoE,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCeL39lbT$>
>>>
>>> ----------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Fis mailing list
>>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> ----------
>>> INFORMACI?N SOBRE PROTECCI?N DE DATOS DE CAR?CTER PERSONAL
>>>
>>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
>>> gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>>> Puede encontrar toda la informaci?n sobre como tratamos sus datos
>>> en el siguiente enlace:
>>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>>>
>>> Recuerde que si est? suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede
>>> darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci?n en el momento en que lo
>>> desee.
>>> http://listas.unizar.es
>>> ----------
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dr. Mark William Johnson
>>> Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
>>> University of Manchester
>>> Department of Science Education
>>> University of Copenhagen
>>> Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
>>> University of Liverpool
>>> Phone: 07786 064505
>>> Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
>>> Blog: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UW-744Gq_Z1mZN6ewrp88SK2vtCriVDNQHWUIHG1X4eG3uJDR5ZW4NogZilycnKgbtFJGG939CKN2bmuxb0w_N0EZNAY$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!URFV9khS44ITjIXltk8cDIk0LIS3euhXR4PrH7HZHTlukEZXKGStaHartpCsSghtMn4bQphN3qzqGLghUbaaYrk$>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fis mailing list
>> Fis at listas.unizar.es
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> ----------
>> INFORMACI?N SOBRE PROTECCI?N DE DATOS DE CAR?CTER PERSONAL
>>
>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>> Puede encontrar toda la informaci?n sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>> Recuerde que si est? suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicaci?n en el momento en que lo desee.
>> http://listas.unizar.es
>> ----------
>
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