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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Peter, Joseph, and List,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks for maintaining the discussion.
First, let me disagree with some of the previous opinions. My own
impression on Eastern philosophy is that historically it shows an
interesting resemblance with some natural processes of different
sciences (mostly quantum physics), but at the level of
generalities and without much possibilities of advancing
scientific knowledge by itself, neither theoretically nor
experimentally--historically it didn't. And it didn't create
social schemes of national/supranational order beyond the stigmas
and defects of Western societies either. Creating complex
societies, maintaining them and designing efficient institutions
is hardly difficult for all human cultures, up to now. In my
opinion, the 1960s and 1970s cultural fashions overvalued the
oriental theme (eg, Capra's Tao of Physics). Anyhow, I am open to
introduce nuances in the above generalizations.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I much appreciate, Joseph, your mention
of Michael Conrad. As veteran FISers know, his "vertical
information flow" was a seminal contribution to launch the FIS
enterprise, more than 30 years ago... My own opinion on the new
physics he championed is of very relative value. We really joined
views at the molecular level (enzymes, molecular computing,
molecular recognition), in the schemes of intra-neuronal
processing, in neuronal populations, in adaptability... and also
in the need to link these natural science views with genuine human
processes and the characteristics of social-economic realms. His
chapter in 1996 FIS proceedings (BioSystems) is a great
compilation of his whole thought.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">About other comments, this is not the
place for me to argue in favor of solving the conundrums of the
information term. Peter has chosen the discussion of an
alternative, important term, feedback, that has a towering
presence in nature and in behavioral and social processes in
general. Every time we engage in conversation we implicitly expect
the multiple materialization of these feedbacks--or ask for them
with a ? sign. Or in any occasion we may try to buy or sell
something we suffer them. The market is but a gigantic,
distributed system of feedbacks (and of other processes)... Right,
we may have many intriguing points to discuss. I am personally
fascinated by the human omnipresence of laughter feedbacks.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">To close this brief response, let me
state that we have insensibly entered into the genre of
narratives: tentatively trying to anchor them in different
disciplinary views. It is tantalizing, but perhaps we cannot
advance as far as we wish neither in the coherence that Joseph was
inquiring nor in the inquire on feedbacks themselves. But aren't
they necessary exercises within the "Art of Knowledge"? <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best regards--Pedro<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> El 06/11/2024 a las 10:37,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:205721957.394843.1730885864379@email.bluewin.ch">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<meta charset="UTF-8">
<div> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dear Peter and All,</span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">In
spite of much goodwill, the discussion still seems to me to
lack agreement on the nature of the foundational contributions
to science that a more "Eastern" philosophy and logic might
bring. The reference to Fromm, new to me, was of interest, but
has he not just served up another</span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">duality
of the kind I think we should avoid?</span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">To
paraphrase Stafford Beer, "To have <strong>and</strong> to
be, that humanity (or whatever)".</span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">I say
this, again not be to "contrary", but to try to make sure that
no principles get stated in isolation from their environment,
not only the equivalent of spatial but also temporal.</span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">As
Pedro and Peter know, Michael Conrad conceived of some new
physics at the most fundamental level of reality. I would like
to ask our two "rocks" if and how these principles might help
clarify some of the current biological (or biophysical) issues
in the debate. </span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">Best
wishes,</span> </div>
<div class="default-style"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">Joseph</span>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> ---------- Message d'origine ---------- </div>
<div> De : Mark Johnson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com"><johnsonmwj1@gmail.com></a> </div>
<div> À : Peter Erdi <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"><Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu></a> </div>
<div> CC : fis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"><fis@listas.unizar.es></a> </div>
<div> Date : 29.10.2024 23:33 CET </div>
<div> Sujet : Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity &
feedback </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"> Dear Peter, all,
<div> </div>
<div> I think there is a critical question here about
the extent to which the cybernetics and complexity
science are haunted by Darwin. Both Gordana's and
Sheri's posts highlight the emerging revision of
biology, and we should thank Alex for sparking this
with reference to perennial philosophy. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> To see whether there is a case to answer with
regard to cybernetics and Darwin, it is helpful to
examine some of the contemporary critiques of
cybernetics from social theorists. For example, Erich
Fromm complains: "people of the cybernetic religion
constantly adapt their egos according to the
principle: "I am as you desire me"" (To have or To Be,
p121). </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Equally Horkheimer argues: "Just as all life today
tends increasingly to be subjected to rationalization
and planning, so the life of each individual,
including his most hidden impulses, which formerly
constituted his private domain, must now take the
demands of rationalization and planning into account:
the individual's self-preservation presupposes his
adjustment to the requirements for the preservation of
the system. He no longer has room to evade the system.
And just as the process of rationalization is no
longer the result of the anonymous forces of the
market, but is decided in the consciousness of a
planning minority, so the mass of subjects must
deliberately adjust themselves: the subject must, so
to speak, devote all his energies to being 'in and of
the movement of things' in the terms of the
pragmatistic definition" (Eclipse of Reason) </div>
<div> </div>
<div> The key uniting theme is "adaptation to
environment" - it is phenotypic adaptation to a
present environment. Meanwhile emergence is accounted
for through synchronic stochastic processes. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> The new biology is different, and more in tune
with what Alex had to say. Phenotypic selection is
driven by internal selection mechanisms which
reference an evolutionary history of epigenetic
inheritance. Moreover, phenotypic selection serves an
epigenetic purpose, where the phenotype is a vehicle
for the next generation of adaptation. In other words,
this is fundamentally diachronic,
historically-oriented selection. It's not a
thermostat... and, perhaps more importantly, it's not
random. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Interestingly, the basic idea of internal
selection (albeit without the historical/epigenetic
diachronic mechanism) has been around for a long time.
Very interesting to compare with Lancelot Law Whyte
here: <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://philpapers.org/rec/WHYIFI__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!URFV9khS44ITjIXltk8cDIk0LIS3euhXR4PrH7HZHTlukEZXKGStaHartpCsSghtMn4bQphN3qzqGLghPbZieQA$"
moz-do-not-send="true">Lancelot Law Whyte, Internal
factors in evolution - PhilPapers</a> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> So perhaps the first challenge is to decide
whether there is a problem here - whether our thinking
about complexity and feedback is deficient in a
fundamental way, which relates to Darwinian theory.
(This may of course include our thinking about
information!). If people believe this is the case,
then the challenge is to think what we do about it.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> Best wishes, </div>
<div> </div>
<div> Mark </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr"> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 at
21:55, Peter Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>>
wrote: </div>
<blockquote>
<div class="msg3804549938779238516">
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Thank you for your feedback. I needed a little time to
give up my initial intention. I had some framework in
mind about the concept of feedback, but during the
discussion, I realized I had the chance to read and
digest other ideas. </div>
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<div
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++ I am afraid that some emails went to my junk mail
box and might have been deleted. If I did not answer,
I probably unintentionally deleted your mail. Please
resend if it is possible! ++ </div>
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<div
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Where are we now? </div>
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<div
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- Karl suggested: "Let us build a feedback based
circular system that functions, at first. Let us
investigate in a subsequent step, what are critical
components of that system." </div>
<div
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- Alex offers an optimistic perspective. He states
that there is an approach, namely Perennial
Philosophy, that helps to avoid catastrophic
extinction. </div>
<div
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- Mark associates Perennial Philosophy with the
concept of Phenotype as an Agent for Epigenetic
Inheritance (based on a paper by Torday & Miller.
Denis Noble and Philip Ball were mentioned. </div>
<div
style="font-family: Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0,0,0);">
- Joe mentioned French Philosophy—Jean Baudrillard,
and implicitly postmodernism. I am not familiar with
the works of Augustin Berque. With a little jump I
mention hermeneutics, and the cyclic perpsective of
understanding. I believe that hermeneutics is an
important concept in brain theory (with Ichiro Tsuda
Hermeneutic approach to the brain: Process versus
Device? </div>
<div
style="font-family: Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0,0,0);">
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=q832g60AAAAJ&citation_for_view=q832g60AAAAJ:Y0pCki6q_DkC__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCUovXjy9$"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=q832g60AAAAJ&citation_for_view=q832g60AAAAJ:Y0pCki6q_DkC</a>
) </div>
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<div
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Gordana's post is a game-changer in our discussion. We
all know that the Modern (neo-Darwinian) Synthesis
has been challenged, and she gave a list of newer
ideas of the "Extended Evolutionary Synthesis" by
Denis Noble. </div>
<div
style="font-family: Aptos,Aptos_EmbeddedFont,Aptos_MSFontService,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0,0,0);">
I like the idea of analyzing evolution in cybernetic
terms. Wiener's approach is based on the assumption
(?) that machines are organisms are goal-seeking
systems. How about evolution? As we know,
neo-Darwinism assumes random mutation and implies that
evolution is open-ended without a goal. I (not very
profoundly) know some papers by Daniel W McShea about
Evolutionary trends and goal-directedness. </div>
<div
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</div>
<div
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This is a huge topic, and I am not the most
appropriate person to lead the discussion. In any
case, one defender of the now classical theory is
Jerry Coyne. See his blog <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2024/02/12/yet-another-misguided-attempt-to-revise-evolution/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCYtcx6-5$"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2024/02/12/yet-another-misguided-attempt-to-revise-evolution/</a>
</div>
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Briefly, I saw Sheri's paper in BioSystems when it was
published, but I have to read it more attentively. The
concept of self-referential information processing is
very important to me. </div>
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<div
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So, my dear friends, how can we continue the
conversation? </div>
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<div
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If you are in Europe or in India, good night! </div>
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<div
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Peter </div>
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<hr style="display: inline-block; width: 98%;">
<div id="m_7180132291341480347divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr">
<span
style="color: #000000; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><strong>From:</strong>
Markose, Sheri <<a
href="mailto:scher@essex.ac.uk" target="_blank"
rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">scher@essex.ac.uk</a>><br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Tuesday, October 29, 2024
1:40 PM<br>
<strong>To:</strong> Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <<a
href="mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gordana.dodig-crnkovic@chalmers.se</a>>;
Peter Erdi <<a href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> fis <<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"
rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> RE: [Fis] New Discussion
Session--Complexity & feedback</span>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);">Dear
Peter, Gordana and All </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);">Let
me add to the major <strong>Revisions to the
theory of Evolution</strong> theme, which has
come about as result of advances in gene
science. This has moved the needle away from
the flawed <strong>Neo-Darwinian Synthesis
(NDS)</strong> on random mutation and natural
selection. </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);">Gordana
in the list you gave below, please note that the
major game changer to the <strong>NDS</strong>
came with the discoveries made by the 1983
Nobel Prize Winner Barbara McClintock who
discovered what are called transposable elements
(TE) that scissor and paste ( Transposons) and
copy paste (Retrotransposons). Genomic dynamics
and changes or genomic /novelty mostly require
Retrotransposons which move around in the host
genome and convert their copied RNA into DNA of
the genome by reverse transcription typically in
a new site. Think how we edit a digital word
doc by copy paste… No random mutation here. </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);">Amazingly,
98% of the advanced eukaryote genome is made up
of such non-coding transposable elements
(mistakenly called junk DNA) while only 2% is
protein coding. </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);">As
TEs have viral software origins, this source of
diversity can also be harmful to the genome and
has to be kept under check by a stringent
means. Many moons ago my FIS contribution
called this <strong><em>genomic blockchain</em></strong>
using a 21 century invention where digital
record keeping can keep original blocks secure
from internal and external (bilo)malware and
evolve complexity that is not adversarial to the
earlier blocks. Unlike manmade blockchain of
Bitcoin, genomic blockchain operates on
self-referential information processing. This
can be found in 2022 complexification of
eukaryote paper of mine </span><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104718__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCcXSWFQ1$"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; text-decoration: none;">https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104718</span></a>
...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>All best regards</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Sheri</p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right: none; border-bottom: none; border-left: none; border-top: 1pt solid rgb(225,225,225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p><strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">From:</span></strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">
Fis <<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
<strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Gordana Dodig
Crnkovic<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Tuesday, October 29,
2024 7:48 AM<br>
<strong>To:</strong> Peter Erdi <<a
href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> fis <<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Fis] New
Discussion Session--Complexity &
feedback</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
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<p><span style="">Dear Peter and All,</span></p>
<p><span style=""> </span></p>
<p><span style="">I want to comment on the “<strong>revision
of the theory of evolution</strong>”.</span></p>
<p><span style="">If you want details, let me know
and I will send you a five-page file.</span></p>
<p><span style=""> </span></p>
<p><span style="">The “revision” of the theory of
evolution” sounds problematic, but it is the
natural development of the theory. That is
happening in all sciences all the time, and
recently we have witnessed very important
developments in the theory of evolution that I
am convinced you will be able to explain in
terms of cybernetics and feedback mechanisms.
The inclusion of principles from <strong>complexity
science</strong> and <strong>cybernetics</strong>
supports the notion that evolutionary
processes are more adaptable and responsive
than Darwin’s original model, emphasizing
interdependent feedback mechanisms.</span></p>
<p><span style="">These advancements provide a
broader, more integrative view of evolution,
suggesting that the traditional model of
random mutation and selection is only part of
the story. </span></p>
<p><span style=""> </span></p>
<p><span style="">What is typically considered </span><span
style="">the </span><span style="">“theory of
evolution” today is “<strong>Modern
(neo-Darwinian) synthesis</strong>” which is
also a “revision” of the original Darwin</span><span
style="">’</span><span style="">s theory that
added genes as a fundamental explanation
mechanism.</span></p>
<p><span style="">Recent developments in the
theory of evolution, particularly those
proposed by scientists like <strong>Denis
Noble, Eva Jablonka</strong>, and others are
reshaping how we understand evolutionary
processes beyond the classical framework of
Modern (neo-Darwinian) synthesis. </span></p>
<p><span style=""> </span></p>
<p><span style="">Here are some key recent
advancements</span></p>
<p><span style=""> </span></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Denis Noble and the
"Extended Evolutionary Synthesis" (EES)</span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Rethinking the Central
Dogma</span></strong><span style="">: Noble,
a prominent physiologist, challenges the idea
of the central dogma of molecular biology,
which states that information flows only from
DNA to RNA to protein. He suggests that
biological processes are more interactive and
interconnected, with feedback mechanisms that
can allow information to flow in reverse and
across different parts of a system.</span></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Multi-level Selection
and Interconnected Systems</span></strong><span
style="">: Noble’s research emphasizes that
evolutionary change isn’t only driven by
gene-level mutations but also by the
organism’s interactions at multiple biological
levels. This perspective argues that genes,
cells, tissues, and organs can all influence
evolutionary outcomes, challenging the
reductionist view that genes alone determine
phenotypes.</span></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Evolutionary Processes
Beyond Genes</span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Epigenetics and
Plasticity</span></strong><span style="">:
The EES incorporates epigenetics—heritable
changes in gene expression not driven by DNA
sequence changes—as a significant factor. This
flexibility allows organisms to respond more
rapidly to environmental changes, which may
also be passed on to offspring under certain
conditions.</span></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Niche Construction</span></strong><span
style="">: Another central concept of EES is
niche construction, which is the process by
which organisms actively shape their
environments, which in turn influences their
own evolution. For example, beavers create
dams that transform local ecosystems,
affecting not only their survival but also
that of other species.</span></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Emergent Behaviors and
Self-Organization</span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Biological Complexity
and Adaptation</span></strong><span style="">:
Agent-based approaches demonstrate how
self-organized behaviors, which emerge from
simple rules at the individual level, can lead
to complex adaptation strategies. These
emergent patterns are not always predictable
from the initial conditions and suggest that
evolution may have more directionality than
previously thought.</span></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Evolution as a Systemic
Process</span></strong><span style="">:
Instead of viewing evolution as a linear,
gene-centered process, newer models support
the idea of evolution as a systemic process
involving feedback loops and interactions
across many levels of biological organization.</span></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Interdisciplinary
Approaches in Evolutionary Theory</span></strong></p>
<p><span style="">Fields like <strong>systems
biology</strong> and <strong>ecology</strong>
are increasingly intersecting with
evolutionary biology, highlighting that
organisms and their environments evolve
together in a dynamic feedback loop.</span></p>
<p><strong><span style=""> </span></strong></p>
<p><strong><span style="">Darwin's agential
materials</span></strong><strong><span
style="">, </span></strong><span style=""><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fpubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov*2f37156924*2f&c=E,1,_5EkdnmYC7CYss96onPyTcRuIp4UjwaT12Tyd-C6q8pLL5x9mEBdNM__jMujN8CEyYcgMvPu9--_lPjOLmAnzvl03vWrRX10QRRZSeRS-XgMRg,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCUsokdQo$"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37156924/</a></span><span
style=""> </span></p>
<p><span style="">The concept of an “agent
approach” in evolutionary biology, where
individual cells exhibit goal-directed
behaviors or "agency," represents an
intriguing shift in understanding living
systems. This perspective, advanced Michael
Levin and Denis Noble, proposes that cells and
other biological units are not passive,
deterministic entities but rather active
participants with their own forms of "goals"
and responsive behaviors. Here’s a look at the
agent-based approach with this view of
cellular agency.</span></p>
<p><span style=""> </span></p>
<p><span style="">All the best,</span></p>
<p><span style="">Gordana</span></p>
<p><span style=""> </span></p>
<p><span style=""> </span></p>
<div
style="border-right: none; border-bottom: none; border-left: none; border-top: 1pt solid rgb(181,196,223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p><strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: black;">From: </span></strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: black;">Fis <<a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>>
on behalf of Peter Erdi <<a
href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Date: </strong>Tuesday, 29 October
2024 at 03:25<br>
<strong>To: </strong>"<a
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>"
<<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>>,
Mark Johnson <<a
href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>><br>
<strong>Cc: </strong>fis <<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<strong>Subject: </strong>Re: [Fis] New
Discussion Session--Complexity &
feedback</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Dear Alex, Joe,
Mark , and All:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">I find the
appearance of remarkable concepts in our
discussion very challenging: perennial
philosophy, revision of the theory of
evolution, and postmodern French philosophy.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">I am digesting
your thoughts, and hope to send a more
substantial post about 18 hours later.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Kind regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Peter</span></p>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div id="m_7180132291341480347x_Signature">
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fblogs.kzoo.edu*2fperdi*2f&c=E,1,bz0FfE_9Ks00ng5llmcu6Y25y6S7P4sC0OrOYmZQM5UWQI5N99zuXQxwt9A9L4gv3v6R1AExli8BKikW_71JJsMMRngt_GhRIU8Z50Pzk7Ue&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCWNAwDTf$"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V9pGWVnrGix8iYOTIEtL1iJbcL5my7XkJK-TOHuDN4ah3gtOBc-Na4v5AXVKEhgYcA6_avZLWIX1y7Ijlr1U2T3Z$"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="98%"> </div>
<div id="m_7180132291341480347x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p><strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: black;"> <a
href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>
<<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>><br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Sunday, October 27,
2024 6:16 AM<br>
<strong>To:</strong> Mark Johnson <<a
href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>><br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> Peter Erdi <<a
href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>>;
fis <<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Fis] New
Discussion Session--Complexity &
feedback</span></p>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p>Dear Mark and Peter, </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Your last two notes taken together, seem to
me to offer a remarkable basis for further
discussion. Both modify "circularity" in
such a way (sic!) that there is just enough
left of the simplistic notion of circle
while focussing non-circular dynamics. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>The French philosopher Jean Baudrillard
(1929 - 2007) suggested two antagonistic
forms in reality in a 2004 book (my
translation): </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Integral Reality: the irreversible movement
of the totality of the world.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Dual Form: the internal reversibility of
the irreversible movement of the Real.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>To avoid having to apply the overly
semantic term of "contradictory" to these
double, better recursive, movements, one may
handle both by reference to the change of
parts from actual to potential, and <em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">vice
versa. </span></em></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>A further advance been made by the
contemporary French philosopher Augustin
Berque. He proposes complementing
transduction by the more complex term <em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">trajection </span></em>which
takes into account the logical implications
of our own existence, Links are thus
possible to logics "of the middle" like
those of the Orient.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Joseph</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p>Le 27.10.2024 00:14 CEST, Mark Johnson
<<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit :</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Dear Alex and Peter</p>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Perrenialism is very close to the
biological theory articulated here: </p>
</div>
<div>
<p><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fpmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov*2farticles*2fPMC5037349*2f&c=E,1,N5VX3UCXn_QhFPtHJD3YaSm8xlCbXYiyVZMd9KMv43SUj9oNPVYuaJSE-BPXf0h12EjnUbT_jn1hwjK36LgSlthOe1dzUZvtlTXGwxIwv0rFYtJKFrQ,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCSEJil8T$"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5037349/</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Alex, this connection leapt out at me
after reading your comment!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>It makes me wonder whether Darwinism
haunts cybernetics. The view in the
Torday/Miller paper suggests that the
Darwinian paradigm of selection among
phenotypes is incorrect, where instead
phenotypes are agents of epigenetic
inheritance in service to cellular
internal selection, with the "perennial"
zygote as the focus, not the phenotype.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>While there is an increasing body of
empirical evidence to support a
cell-based view of evolution (currently
argued by Denis Noble, Philip Ball, as
well as Torday and colleagues), maybe
the important question is to ask what
this might mean for the cybernetic
thinking that Peter is discussing. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>A few points strike me as interesting:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>1. Circularity is a much better term
than feedback, because it captures a
deeper process of homeorhesis. But two
questions concerning this are "what is
stabilised?" and "who says?"</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>2. Transduction is a more precise name
for the process implicated in
"circularity". Behind that is
conservation of energy on the one hand,
and conversion of energy on the other.
Cells and organisms are transducers, but
the transduction process happens within
them. It may operate with reference to
the endogenised history of the cell in
its own constitution. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>3. Transduction must involve both
selection and niche construction. The
selection is both internal, referencing
the evolutionary history of the cell,
and external in maintaining equipoise
with the environment. This selection
process is multidimensional, featuring
stochasticity (see Denis Noble),
signals, constraints and coordination. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>4. The transduction process relies on
cells being observers of other cells and
of themselves. It cannot work without
self-reference. This is probably to
restate the Conant-Ashby good regulator
theorem, or Rosen's anticipatory
systems, or Stafford Beer's "System 4"
in the Viable System Model.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>5. Systems people get tied up in knots
when failing to apprehend the
dimensional difference between
stochasticity (noise), signals,
constraints and coordination. We need
better conceptual tools for dealing with
this.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Best wishes</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Mark</p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p>On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, 09:39 Alex Hankey,
<<a
href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">Dear
Peter, and Fis Members, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">About
1970, the Futurology Research
Group under Dr. Willis Harman </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">at
SRI (Stanford Research Institute)
showed that the only system of
thought apparently able to save
mankind from extinction was the
Perennial Philosophy. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">Developments
and events over the past half
century, such as the Enron crisis,
Bankruptcies of banks such as
London's Barings Bank, caused by
unauthorised investments by senior
employees, or the climate crisis
and deforestation of the Amazon,
driven by corporate greed etc,
suggest that this is true. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">I
live in India, the only country
that subscribes to the Perennial
Philosophy as the foundation of
its 5 main religions, Hinduism,
Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and
Zoroastrianism, where I conduct
research on the relationship
between Science and Spirituality.
I therefore feel that I can state
with some authority that, by and
large, India sets an example in a
number of areas, which are
consistent with the conclusions of
Harman's futurology work at SRI. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">Looking
at the violence being generated on
different levels in North America,
in the Middle East, in Russia, and
by the Chinese Communist Party and
its minions, we can see many
threats to our future, some of
which are ongoing, and others that
promise to emerge before the end
of the present decade. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">The
Perennial Philosophy, as described
in Aldous Huxley's book of that
name, is embodied in the word's of
Swami Vivekananda, one of India's
greatest spiritual leaders in the
late 19th century. Vivekananda
stated, 'Man is born to become
Divine'. He did not mean in the
present life-time, but rather by
gaining greater and greater
experience of Life through the
cycles of death and rebirth, each
human soul holds the potential to
make the transition from being
bound by his/her thoughts, words
and actions, to a level where by
serving Divine levels, and acting
in accordance with instructions
received from the Divine, he / she
rises to be on a level on a par
with the Divine. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">Several
of India's greatest spiritual
teachers today exemplify that
transition. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">By
bringing their work to humanity as
a whole, it may be possible to
prevent our destruction, and enter
a time of endless prosperity. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">But
only by subscribing to the
universal values of Truth,
Goodness and Beauty (violently
rejected by the CCP) can we hope
for this to happen. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">All
best wishes, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">Sincerely,
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">Alex
Hankey </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: rgb(11,83,148);">
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p>On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 at 05:01, Peter
Erdi <<a
href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Dear
FISer: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Personal Intro:</span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">I
am happily back in this
community: I attended the
1994, 1996, and 2005
conferences. In the last
twenty years, I have been
active in the neural network
community (<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fwww.inns.org*2ffellows-senior-members*2f&c=E,1,7FOnD4qB_uw6TuWoe9krf9vwGq-VMu-9IvPVcdetl6hyJyNI_oJzWyUwKGq3yFkB563b9dGFYFIHF4Us67ZezVyIYI_JG-uCak6A_g16ZqqGpCSzxSGmGduLOw,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCZeWJKhM$"
target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.inns.org/fellows-senior-members/</a>).
In the previous five years,
I published three books, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFP9sLo6U$"
target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/</a> ,
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$"
target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">The
third is in press: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Feedback: How to
Destroy or Save the World </span></strong><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$"
target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://link.springer.com/book/9783031624384</a><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$"
target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="text-decoration: none;"> </span></a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">(There
is a 20% discount code at
checkout on <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/link.springer.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Szk4lYPkGi5BDvo8We0ODRu28kt6a19QJOVQUBkdaJRV_hLqwotelvKUE_hfvBDuedR8kcjhT7NR1WBbv80w-Q$"
target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">
link.springer.com</a>: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">I9rXjXjXbr7UGE</span></em><span
style="color: black;"> /
Valid Oct 10, 2024 – Nov 7,
2024). The Foreword was
written by Michael Arbib. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">I
hope you don't mind if I
hope to have a lively
discussion about both
feedback control and its
potential role in answering
the question: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Will humanity
survive, and will our
grandchildren live in
prosperity? Or should we
worry about the
possibility of humanity's
extinction? </span></strong><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Hypothesis: </span></em><span
style="color: black;">There
is a narrow border between
destruction and prosperity:
to ensure reasonable growth
but avoid existential risk,
we must find a fine-tuned
balance between positive and
negative feedback. My
attempt is not to deal with
the impossible task, to
prove (certainly not in the
spirit of formal feedback
control theory), but to
support the belief. Chapters
1 - 5 are about the
historical roles of feedback
control in nature,
technology, and society.
Chapters 6 and 7 discuss the
dichotomy of destroying or
saving the world and the
role of feedback control in
avoiding huge catastrophes.
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">I
suggest starting the
discussion with a specific
topic, but I am open to any
comments, initial remarks,
etc. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 1: Norbert
Wiener's Dream:
Technology, Life, and
Society</span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">This
chapter overviews the birth
of Cybernetics as a general
theory of </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">goal-seeking
systems. It introduces the
notion of positive and
negative feedback and gives
credit to the General
Systems Theory, which gave a
framework for integrating
the natural sciences with
the social sciences. Modern
computers made possible the
simulation of social systems
based on causal
relationships among state
variables, leading to
various predicted scenarios
about the world's future,
some pessimistic. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">One
clear insight is that
uncontrolled technological
progress may negatively
affect the environment, and
we need to maintain a
balance between economic
growth and sustainability. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 2: Feedback
Control in the History of
Technology</span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">This chapter
gives an overview of the
application of feedback
control </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">throughout
technological development.
In technological systems,
the goal is to ensure that
some physical quantities,
such as temperature,
pressure, velocity, or
altitude (and many others),
show some desirable,
prescribed behavior over
time. Negative feedback
stabilizes, while positive
feedback amplifies even the
initially minor differences.
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Outriggers,
mechanical clocks, steam
engines, aviation
technologies, and
electronics are the main
stages of progress toward
the Space Travel Age.
Feedback control systems
played a crucial role in
space exploration. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 3: Feedback
Control in Biological
Systems</span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Feedback
control is a fundamental
tool at every level of the
biological hierarchy, from
cellular to socio-ecological
systems. It ensures
homeostasis by adopting a
general mechanism for
restoring certain states
after a small perturbation.
Dynamical diseases occur due
to the impairment of control
systems. The theory of
nonlinear dynamics offers a
mathematical framework to
analyze pathological
temporal patterns. It aims
to find control strategies
to shift the physiological
parameters back into normal
ranges. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 4: Climate
Changes, Wildfires,
Tsunamis</span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">This
chapter starts with
analyzing the role of
positive and negative
feedback loops in climate
systems. Self-reinforcing
positive feedback loops
could result in an
irreversible tipping point
when climate spins out of
control, with catastrophic
results. Reducing the chance
of climate catastrophe must
become a central focus for
civilization today, and
appropriate feedback control
strategies should be
implemented. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 5: From
Laissez-Faire to
Greenspan: Feedback
Control in Economic
Systems</span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">This
chapter analyzes a
fundamental question: Should
economics be controlled or
not? Is the “invisible hand”
and the self-regulation of
free market capitalism the
best possible mechanism, or
does the economy need
governmental intervention?
Minsky’s hypothesis suggests
that stability implies
instability. It is an
observational fact that the
economy shows a cyclic
pattern: business cycles
with different frequencies </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">are
very general. Uncompensated
positive feedback is found
to be a general mechanism
leading to extreme events,
among other hyperinflation.
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 6: From
Natural Disasters to
Social Riots</span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">This
chapter starts with
analyzing whether we should
worry about the </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">possibility
of existential risk. In the
subsection about the complex
system <em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">approach to political
instability, several
issues, namely
terrorism, social
unrest, and migration,
are discussed. Finally,
a short
system-theoretical
analysis implies that
democracies do better
than autocracies.</span></em>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;"> </span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">Chapter 7:
Epilogue: The Narrow
Border Between Prosperity
and Destruction</span></em><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Do
we live in the best possible
world or the shadow of
existential risk? The answer
is BOTH! To avoid disasters,
we need to apply the spirit
of feedback control. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">The
ball is in your court, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Péter
Érdi, October 20, 2024 </span></p>
</div>
<div style="text-align: center;"
align="center">
<hr align="center" size="1"
width="100%"> </div>
<div
id="m_7180132291341480347x_x_m_1623905657489076922m_-8262190845165877122divRplyFwdMsg">
<p><strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: black;"> Pedro C.
Marijuán <<a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">Sent:</span></strong> Friday,
October 18, 2024 12:08 PM<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">To:</span></strong> Peter Erdi
<<a
href="mailto:Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu" target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Peter.Erdi@kzoo.edu</a>>; 'fis' <<a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">Subject:</span></strong> Re:
[Fis] New Discussion
Session--Complexity &
feedback</span></p>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p>Dear Peter,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Many thanks for your
"pre-discussion" message.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>My suggestion to channel such
a broad approach is to divide
it into two parts.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>In the first one, the more
scientific-technical part
(what you mention about "the
historical role of the concept
of feedback".)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>No doubt there are many
points of interest there.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>And later on, you could
publish a second part about
the related vision of the "big
themes" and risks of our
times.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I think in this way the
discussion may flow with some
easiness. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Otherwise we would be happy
with whatever scheme you
prefer.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>All the best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p>--Pedro</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>El 17/10/2024 a las 22:25,
Peter Erdi escribió:</p>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Dear
Pedro and Dear FIS
Colleagues: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Thank
you for your introduction
(I will make some slight
corrections). </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">I
will need several days to
publish my formal
introductory text. I
would like to discuss with
you my thesis: </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif; color: black;">There is a narrow
border between
destruction and
prosperity: to ensure
reasonable growth but
avoid existential risk,
we must find the
fine-tuned balance
between positive and
negative feedback.</span></strong><span
style="color: black;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">I
hope to discuss with you
both the historical role
of the concept of feedback
and its possible
contribution to destroying
or saving the world.
Apologies for the
self-propaganda, I have a
book in press <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/link.springer.com/book/978303162438__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFN2pCEni$"
target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">
https://link.springer.com/book/978303162438</a>4 will write a discount
code, (apologies again). </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Stay
tuned, </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Péter
Érdi </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;">Henry
R. Luce Professor of
Complex Systems Studies </span></p>
</div>
<div
id="m_7180132291341480347x_x_m_1623905657489076922m_-8262190845165877122x_Signature">
<div>
<p><span
style="color: black;">
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="color: black;"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fblogs.kzoo.edu*2fperdi*2f&c=E,1,DXZxDUtw-vuIauMyxqq1G4QdM5IKx_WHJQK7kYtxUGgDE9KRjaIdG-4G0CXdcL1Ogi79GmYSABCYOreR5MR5UmqmpzGp4c__tnNT_bsMF5o8KvRrHTuQ&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCbiDEkbO$"
target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span
style="color: black;"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKttEg2g$"
target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ</a>
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style="color: black;"> <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kzoo.edu/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFLJkHx4Q$"
target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">Kalamazoo
College</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div style="text-align: center;"
align="center">
<hr align="center" size="1"
width="100%"> </div>
<div
id="m_7180132291341480347x_x_m_1623905657489076922m_-8262190845165877122x_divRplyFwdMsg">
<p><strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: black;"> Fis <a
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank"
rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a> on
behalf of Pedro C.
Marijuán <a
href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"><pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com></a><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">Sent:</span></strong> Thursday,
October 17, 2024 9:58 AM<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">To:</span></strong> 'fis' <a
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<fis@listas.unizar.es></a><br>
<strong><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">Subject:</span></strong> [Fis]
New Discussion
Session--Complexity &
feedback</span></p>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p>Dear FIS Colleagues,</p>
<p>We may start a new discussion
session during next days.</p>
<p>Title:</p>
<p><strong><span
style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">Complexity and
feedback: in nature,
technology, and society</span></strong></p>
<p>Presenter:</p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><strong><span
style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">Peter Érdi</span></strong>
<br>
Henry R. Luce Professor <br>
University of Kalamazoo (MI)</p>
<p>Greetings to all,</p>
<p>--Pedro <br>
-------------------------------------------------------------- <br>
Pedro C. Marijuán <br>
FIS Coordination <br>
<em><span
style="font-family: Aptos,sans-serif;">FIS Archives last 10 years:</span></em>
<br>
<a
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de virus.</span><span
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<br>
--</p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Alex Hankey M.A.
(Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon
Causa) Professor Emeritus of
Biology,</span></p>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">MIT World Peace
University, </span></p>
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<p><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">124 Paud Road,
Pune, MA 411038 </span></p>
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style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Mobile (Intn'l):
+44 7710 534195 </span></p>
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+91 900 800 8789 </span></p>
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style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">WhatsApp: as for
Mobile, India</span></p>
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<p><span
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Puede encontrar toda la información
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE
CARÁCTER PERSONAL <br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una
lista de correo gestionada por la
Universidad de Zaragoza. <br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre
como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente
enlace: <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fsicuz.unizar.es*2finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&c=E,1,kWI0MEZ9dW5CN9ZSM-JY4_-ru91gk3uGVvR5KpRl_n7CMhTiEVNzukiwShSIC4OWiTx_8t6GNOWiec8COrFWBcwXcj7rXyt4lBh4zSOOZmVe&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJQ!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCappxOuy$"
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Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
<br>
<br>
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de
correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza. <br>
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos
sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a
href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas"
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Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud.
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<br clear="all">
<div> </div>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span> <br>
<div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"> Dr. Mark William Johnson <br>
<div dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);"> Faculty of
Biology, Medicine and Health </div>
<div dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);"> University of
Manchester </div>
<div dir="ltr" style="color: rgb(34,34,34);"> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(34,34,34);"> Department of Science
Education </div>
<div style="color: rgb(34,34,34);"> University of Copenhagen
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(34,34,34);"> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(34,34,34);"> Department of Eye and
Vision Science (honorary) </div>
<div style="color: rgb(34,34,34);"> University of Liverpool
</div>
Phone: 07786 064505 <br>
Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a> <br>
Blog: <a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!URFV9khS44ITjIXltk8cDIk0LIS3euhXR4PrH7HZHTlukEZXKGStaHartpCsSghtMn4bQphN3qzqGLghUbaaYrk$"
target="_blank" rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a>
</div>
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<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
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